I'll be gone for a few hours, but I'm really looking forward to hearing what people have to say.

If you help a person of faith realise that faith is not a book and a set of restrictions, I'd say that you've helped them explore their faith, not crush it. And of course there's emotional fallout, so you wouldn't be much of a friend if you didn't respect your friend's confusion and help her rebuild.

Yes, you should. If she is having doubts, she's already on a path away from her faith. You'll be showing her where that path leads, and based on how she feels about that, she can go on, or turn back.

You shouldn't be afraid to shatter her moral compass. It means she'll have to think about what really matters to her in life. That will probably lead her to refine her moral values, or correct them where needed. All in all, I strongly believe no harm can come from reconsidering your beliefs.

When I have a friend who is having a spiritual crisis and clearly wants to continue to believe, I give them ways to continue belief and work out the issues.

When I have a friend who is having a spiritual crisis and clearly wants to end their belief, I help them understand that a rejection of faith is okay. But this is a long process because it is a paradigm shift in worldview and behavior, usually.

True faith is an evolution, filtering and reforming itself continually. Your friend is just coming to a realization that you can't find that in any particular doctrine. These things are written by people as imperfect as the word. Maybe our lives purpose is really the search, not the destination. Support her and enjoy the ride. Sounds like you got it already. Cheers!

Of course there's a huge difference between open discussion between you and your friend and you proselitysing. The first is always positive, because expanding one's world-view is a necessary part of growing as a person. But if you try to drag her from her faith to yours, it would be wrong. Of course from what you wrote, it doesn't seem that you would do that.

Yeah. I think Vaftrunder is spot on here. I don't think there is any problem with what you are doing by helping her question her beliefs. You are not imposing your beliefs on her, so by making her think about these things, you will only allow her to focus on what she really believes in.

God isn't a dick to so many people, he gives everyone free will and people are dicks to so many people. If people didn't have free will, we'd just be God's little robots whose thoughts were meaningless because our life would be pre-programmed. But in order to choose God, we have to be given the choice to not choose God.

As far as the gay issue, I don't think God has any issue with it, and I think the Bible is sufficiently vague enough about it to also have no issue with it. Have your friend read "The Good Book" as well as "Letters from a Skeptic", that will provide arguments for her to consider that would be in line with a God that is more loving than she currently feels He is, assuming she's really interested in examining the issues with an open mind, and that may help her decide what makes sense to her.

Letters from a Skeptic may be better read first, BTW...

"So, should I pursue this and help her to break free from her religion (if not her belief in some powerful being). And, my more important question: If I do, am I responsible for helping her rebuild her moral compass which I helped to shatter?"

If your friend is simply viewing faith as a list of instructions on what she's supposed to think or believe, by all means break that sucker into a thousand pieces. Her 'faith' is meaningless - she might as well be reading fortune cookies. The Bible says "Test all things, hold fast to that which is true". If your friend feels her beliefs are false, there is no sin in abandoning them. As for rebuilding the moral compass, that's not something you have the power to do - only she does. All you can do is try and talk her out of doing anything stupid once the cuffs are off.

"As far as the gay issue, I don't think God has any issue with it, and I think the Bible is sufficiently vague enough about it to also have no issue with it."

Does Leviticus not count then?

Christian or not, anyone who reads Leviticus and thinks "Whoa, this is relevant for me today and obviously the literal word of God" is batshit crazy.

Holding you all up in prayer that you may end up exploring the Path (Jesus).

If she genuinely doesn't believe in her religion anymore, and you feel that she wants out...

Yes, by all means, give her your views, and let her do with them what she may.

As for if you're responsible for her new compass or not...

Well, I'd say SHE must be responsible for that; after all, if she rejects one set of rules written down by supporters of Yahweh, and then just goes and adopts a set of rules and beliefs that you believe...

Without quite deifying you...after all, no one here is a god amongst men (have fun responding to that) ;) ...

She'd just be trading one mantra--hers--for another, yours.

You can help her, but ultimately, you can just give her your views to think over for herself and, of course, your support as a friend.

It's her life and theological and moral compass to chart and create.

Sarg, Leviticus is up for interpretation... I'm no expert, but I like the arguments presented in "The Good Book", that homosexuality is not a sin according to the author's interpretation of The Bible...

Vaftrduner: "Christian or not, anyone who reads Leviticus and thinks "Whoa, this is relevant for me today and obviously the literal word of God" is batshit crazy."

MadMarx: "Sarg, Leviticus is up for interpretation"

Yes but like it or not, Vaftrudner, that's often taken as the basis for Christian rejection of same-sex orientation.

Crush her puny beliefs and let her enjoy a sinful life free of the shackles of religion.

"[Leviticus]s often taken as the basis for Christian rejection of same-sex orientation."

Really? I thought the basis was where Paul said homosexuals were going to burn in hell? (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

I would say you should just encourage her to explore her doubts. Anyone who would say otherwise, Christian or non-theist, is just an ass.

Where things get dicey is when you start suggesting things to her. If she asks you what you think, say it, but don't recommend she does anything other than think and learn more about it. The extent to which you involve yourself in that is up to you but I would say try mightily to avoid even the impression that you "de-converted" her - and that's even if she does leave and is glad of it later, it's just not a role you want to play in a person's life in my opinion.

Of course, there is always the realpolitik way of doing things, which is to outwardly do the above while clandestinely undermining her faith in the hopes of getting what is best for her even without her knowledge.

Utilize that approach to the extent that your morals are comfortable with its use. Lol.

My source for this information is my own de-conversion experience.

There was no individual who sort of "led me through it" and for that I am thankful. There was only an upbringing of encouraging thought and exploration (I must credit my fundamentalist parents for that in spite of my strong disagreement with their beliefs).

So they, and other educator figures, did what I recommend you do, which is to recommend and facilitate and encourage me to think and settle my questions. The church won for a while - I was one of those "logical Christians" filled with apologetics arguments. But after a while this process took the thing down.

Whether that will for sure happen with your friend is unknown, and you have to respect whatever choice she comes to her. Just help her reach a conclusion and don't let up until you feel she has. If that conclusion is in fact Christianity I do not believe you should attempt to change her conclusion.

Thucydides, my experience seems similar to yours. I endorse your suggestion with +1s.

I knew you guys wouldn't fail me : ) Let's see:

@Vaft

"If you help a person of faith realise that faith is not a book and a set of restrictions"

I like this line of thinking and (to the best I can tell) I feel that's how she mostly views her current religion.

@MM

"God isn't a dick to so many people, he gives everyone free will and people are dicks to so many people."

No, in the OT Yaweh was a total dick and killed hundreds of thousands of people for no reason. Don't tell me the OT doesn't count for some reason, because for some people it most certainly does.

I will look into those books, though. Thanks.

@Tol

"As for rebuilding the moral compass, that's not something you have the power to do - only she does. All you can do is try and talk her out of doing anything stupid once the cuffs are off."

I realize, of course, I don't have such power, but I still feel I'd be responsible to help.

@Vaft

"Christian or not, anyone who reads Leviticus and thinks "Whoa, this is relevant for me today and obviously the literal word of God" is batshit crazy."

See, this is why I don't like religion in general. Picking and choosing from the bible is a tricky business and really gives religious leaders carte blanche on the meaning of the word of god. How can some parts of the bible be literal truths and others not? Some believe that the whole bible is made up, but it is still from god. That's fine, I guess, but it makes the bible a less than practical handbook for living in the 21st century.

@Muj

I'm glad you posted. As it turns out, I don't keep my female friends in a constant state of inebriation. The next time I talk about this, I'm sure her christian defenses will be fully armed an operational, and I'll get some sort of brainwashed response as the one you posted here.

@obi

"It's her life and theological and moral compass to chart and create."

Of course. I don't plan some grant remolding of her character, but in a world surrounded by theists, I wonder if I really want to take on the role of being the person to get her to really question her beliefs.

@Thucy

"Of course, there is always the realpolitik way of doing things, which is to outwardly do the above while clandestinely undermining her faith in the hopes of getting what is best for her even without her knowledge."

lol Maybe if I was trying this on a random stranger to buff up on my Diplomacy skills. I wouldn't do that to a friend, though : )

"There was no individual who sort of "led me through it" and for that I am thankful."

Yes, yes. As I've said, I have no visions of grandior here. The decision will be hers and I will be only a very small part of that decision. But, all the same, I wouldn't want to fuck something up.

@ et al.

Thanks, your thoughts were helpful to read.

One thing worth pointing out though is that losing one's religion is not a cure in itself for stupid behaviour. I don't buy the simple explanation that religion is the cause of the majority of evil, I think that it can be a cause, but it can also simply be an excuse for conservative views, homophobia, xenophobia, etc. It's easy enough to justify accepting all people in terms of Christian thought. Judge not, love your neighbour, don't throw stones. Pretty much anything can be justified in religious terms, even love. When a religious person is uncomfortable around gay people, I usually don't concentrate on their religion, I concentrate on the fact that they're uncomfortable around gay people. There are probably other factors at work, and other ways to reason with the person, assuming that the person isn't completely unreasonable.

Oh yes, I completely agree.

But, it's easier to call someone out on their prejudice when they aren't hiding behind religion.

Moral compass? AS IF. You'll probably want to avoid being pegged by her as the guy who made her godless. But, you will have to weigh this against the possiblity of lots of hot demonic sexy times. Quite a dilemma.

Religion is poison. One more person free from from these immoral ghost stories means the world is a nicer, kinder place.

You'll be sorry at the rapture!

Ab, the OT doesn't count.

I'm confident there are many good books out there, Letters from a Skeptic just happens to be one I have read and made some good points for me to think about... The Good Book is much longer and gets into the issues of slavery, women and homosexuality in the Bible, among other things.

MM, I do not think it is fair of you to say the OT doesn't count.

For starters, the favorite defense of all Christians for using the OT is the verse in Timothy that says "all scripture is good for teaching, doctrine, and reproof," or something along those lines. That is /the/ major defense for using the OT to form doctrine.
Moreover, abgemacht already said this in other terms: the OT does count quite a bit for many Christian groups (and presumably, his friend).

An other thing, the NT has no foundation without the OT (Jesus did say, "I have not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it" and /all/ of the prophesy for Jesus comes from the OT). The /laws/ of the OT do not /necessarily/ apply, because some of the laws were specifically for the old covenant. The sacrificial laws particularly fall in this category as no longer necessary because Christ came to fulfill the old covenant and did so by dying on the cross as the perfect sacrifice (I think Paul describes this in Romans?). Another example of outdated laws are the dietary laws (thank you, Peter).
Some laws, however, are passed from the old to new covenant. For example, marriage to one wife or no murder (whether these laws were/are followed under either covenant is irrelevant; they're still laws). One of the major reasons that homosexuality et al are considered great sins is due to the purity laws, because our bodies are now temples for the holy spirit (Romans again, I believe).

Further, the reason marriage in particular is described as "one man, one woman" is, this is a picture of Christ and the Church, the bride and the bridegroom. Any other union is not marriage because it betrays the image YHWH so carefully constructed. The good retort here is, but Christ (YHWH?) left his first bride, Israel, for the Church. That should stump any evangelical long enough that you can get another word in edgewise.


All this to say, you cannot easily discount the OT when dealing with a Christian.