Oh, it started in the "What games involve skills vital to diplomacy" thread. The debate is about whether: 1) Israeli security is strengthened by tough policies vs. the Palestinian insurgency. 2) The US/West are blindly pro-Israel and let Israel do whatever it wants.

My answers to the above questions are: 1) Yes and 2) No. I give reasons for answer #1 in the games thread.

My problem with your Israeli stats is it only shows Israeli desths and not innocent Palestinians who have died as a result of Israel's strikes using weapons provided to them by the west.

"My problem with your Israeli stats is it only shows Israeli desths and not innocent Palestinians who have died as a result of Israel's strikes using weapons provided to them by the west."

Well the stats had more to do with pointing out the increased rate of attack after Oslo and the decline in attacks since the construction of the security fence.

Now you're raising two separate points in my view. 1-The issue of western military aid to Israel and 2-Palestinian civilian deaths.

On point #1 - Israel only gets military aid from the US. Arab countries get aid from all over the place, including the US. The US has sold top of the line military equipment to many Arab states, including billions in aid to Saudi Arabia, a country which is openly hostile to Israel. Egypt is the second biggest recipient of US military aid. The US just made its single biggest arms deal not with Israel but with Saudi Arabia ($60 bln, including 84 new F-15 fighter jets and upgrades to the F-15s the US already gave them). The US and especially Europe also provide a mighty sum of economic assistance to the Palestinians and Arab countries in general. The US is the biggest contributor to the Palestinian refugee aid agency - UNRWA, giving $267 million in 2009.

On point #2 - what is a Palestinian civilian? Considering the kind of combat Israel is required to do, and the fact that the insurgency uses civilians as human shields and hides amongst them to force house-by-house urban combat, the civilian casualties are quite low.

It appears that often people forget that Israel attacks Gazan targets only after Hamas attacks Israeli civilians. Have you ever heard of Sderot, for example? Here is a quote from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sderot):

----
Sderot, less than a mile from Gaza, has been the target of Palestinian rocket attacks which, between 2001 and 2008, killed 13 Israelis living near the Gaza border, wounded dozens, caused millions of dollars in damage, and profoundly disrupted daily life. According to MSNBC, "nearly everyone [has been] traumatized by the frequent sound of air-raid sirens and explosions of incoming projectiles". All local schools have been fortified. From mid-June 2007 to mid-February 2008, 771 rockets and 857 mortar bombs were fired at Sderot and the western Negev, an average of three or four each a day.
----

That would be 1628 rockets and mortars on 20,000 civilians in half a year. Mind to mention that it is not a military base, there are no soldiers in Sderot - only civilians.

Now, lets do a little exercise. Please write how YOUR country would behave if a terror organization that has won elections in a neighbor region would shell a city in YOUR country with 1628 rockets and mortars in 6 months.

From the games thread...

"I know people who claim the source is biased, but can anyone come up with another source which shows that attacks increased or even stayed at the same level?"

From your mcclatchy link:

"She cautioned that the decline might be misleading. While successful suicide bombings are at a low, the number of attempts is rising, she said. The Israeli army arrested 187 potential suicide bombers last year, up from 96 in 2005, according to Israeli military statistics."

"This is incorrect. 120 suicide bombings took place in the years prior to the Second Intifada, from1994-2000. More Israelis were killed by Palestinian terror in the 5 years after Oslo than in the 15 years prior to the agreement."

Your source obliquely notes that the PLO/PA/Fatah - with whom Israel signed the Oslo accords - was not responsible for any of those attacks. The guilty parties in these attacks were groups which Israel has absolutely refused to negotiate with.

A more complete accounting:
http://www.ecaar.org/Newsletter/Nov04/saleh.htm

FREE PALESTINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

@Putin--I was wondering when someone would bring up this topic.
@Fasces--shut the hell up.
Having lived in Israel myself, I may be biased and nationalist, but I think that the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is among the biggest fronts of the war on terror. And as Baskinelli very well pointed out, what can you do if a nation that just recently declared independence from you starts bombing you? Sderot is exactly the example I was going to use. Less casualties than 9/11, sure, but so much more longer lasting. And after 9/11 the U.S. flipped out and invaded Afghanistan. It is impossible to criticize Israel if you believe at all in fighting terror, I think.

"Israel only gets military aid from the US"

That's simply not true. The US hands out tens of millions in "Migration Assistance", as one example. The US also gives Israel loan guarantees worth billions of dollars, and tens and hundreds of millions in aid for a plethora of research and business development programs. Israel also makes an unknown amount of money by turning around and selling US military technology to countries like China.

"Egypt is the second biggest recipient of US military aid"

Yes, it is the big carrot which keeps in line the only nation that presents a real military threat to Israel. Israeli foreign ministers have in years past publicly threatened to have US aid to Egypt cut if Egypt didn't 'behave' by being more aggressive about enforcing Israel's Gaza blockade. Military aid to Egypt in some degree of parity to military aid to Israel was an effort to palliate the Egyptian military, which after the peace agreement was quite worried about falling far behind Israel and its huge American warchest.

"The US just made its single biggest arms deal not with Israel but with Saudi Arabia ($60 bln, including 84 new F-15 fighter jets and upgrades to the F-15s the US already gave them)"

All to aid Saudi Arabia in a future conflict against Iran - a conflict of which Israel is the biggest booster. I would also note that those F-15s are now about 25 years old, while Israel gets the latest and greatest fruits of the military-industrial complex (F-35s).

"US is the biggest contributor to the Palestinian refugee aid agency - UNRWA, giving $267 million in 2009. "

Whoopdeedo. That's less than $100 per Palestinian, most of which goes to PA kapos whose chief job is keeping other Palestinians on the reservation. Israel, on the other hand, receives many times that amount of aid per capita.

"hides amongst them to force house-by-house urban combat"

But Israel in recent years has completely avoided house-by-house urban combat, instead opting for artillery and air strikes. Those are not the kind of tactics that keep "civilian casualties quite low" - a claim for which we have only the word of IDF spokes-hacks, since the IDF has perfected the art of media control.

"Now, lets do a little exercise. Please write how YOUR country would behave if a terror organization that has won elections in a neighbor region would shell a city in YOUR country with 1628 rockets and mortars in 6 months."

For the life of me, I can't think of another country that encourages and even subsidizes its citizens to move into a war zone.

More people are killed by Israeli cluster bombs dropped in South Lebanon in a war that ended five years ago now than are killed in Sderot by homemade rockets launched from Gaza. The people of South Lebanon, Gaza, and the West Bank have been doing your little exercise for thirty years now, and face far greater dangers and hardships than the people of Sderot. We all know their answer to your question.

Sorry Tolstoy? Israel isn't a terror organization. Israel doesn't go around murdering Palestinians because of their race/religion. HAMAS, however, is a terrorist group, and does these things. And not all of those facts sound believable. "Israel also makes an unknown amount of money by turning around and selling US military technology to countries like China." ? Where did you hear that?

"Where did you hear that?"

This charge has been made by many different sources, including former congressmen, diplomats, military men, etc. A very brief run down of the accusation:

http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/1196/9611009.htm

"Israel doesn't go around murdering Palestinians because of their race/religion"

I'm sure the tens of thousands of Palestinians who have been killed by Israelis over the years are just thrilled to know they weren't killed because of their race or religion.

"Israel only gets military aid from the US"

That's simply not true.

@ Tolstoy - i think you got that statement wrong. I think what it meant was, that the only country that gives military aid to the Israelis is the US. It wasn't meant to say that only the USA only gives military aid to Israel and not any other kind of humanitarian aid.

@Putin. I agree with all of what you're saying, it's about time that a lot of us woke up to those facts.

However, I can't help but chuckle at your name. Unless that's the Quebec fries you're named after, I must admit, I'm surprised to see you arguing that way...

@goldfinger,

I agree on second read that the statement is ambiguous. But even if you read it that way, it's still not true. Israel has received military aid from several European countries over the years, most notably Germany, which is building two submarines for Israel at a huge discount at the moment.

""She cautioned that the decline might be misleading. While successful suicide bombings are at a low, the number of attempts is rising, she said. The Israeli army arrested 187 potential suicide bombers last year, up from 96 in 2005, according to Israeli military statistics.""

Which demonstrates that the security fence is working. Israel went from a record high of fatalities from suicide bombings in 2002 to a situation in which there is a low despite the fact that attempts have not ceased. That's a smashing success. Noa Meir (you who quote) says that ""The security fence was put up to stop terror, and that's what it's doing," said Capt. Noa Meir, a spokeswoman for the Israel Defense Forces.

Even critics of the barrier say it is working, as the McClaskey link points out.

""Although undoubtedly it has had an effect in blocking suicide bombers, the point is that it still would have had that impact if it had been built legally under international law on the Green Line or inside Israel," said Ray Dolphin, the author of "The West Bank Wall: Unmaking Palestine."

Heck, even Palestinian terrorist groups say it is working.

"PIJ leader Ramadan Abdallah Shalah was interviewed in Damascus by the Qatari newspaper Al-Sharq. He said that the second intifada was currently characterized by rocket fire , which had replaced the previous stage of suicide bombing attacks. That, he said, was because the enemy [i.e., Israel ] had found ways and means to protect itself from such attacks: “… For example, they built a separation fence in the West Bank . We do not deny that it limits the ability of the resistance [i.e., the terrorist organizations] to arrive deep within [Israeli territory] to carry out suicide bombing attacks , but the resistance has not surrendered or become helpless, and is looking for other ways to cope with the requirements of every stage [of the intifada]…” (Al-Sharq, March 23, 2008 )."

Tolstoy says:
"Your source obliquely notes that the PLO/PA/Fatah - with whom Israel signed the Oslo accords - was not responsible for any of those attacks. The guilty parties in these attacks were groups which Israel has absolutely refused to negotiate with."

This isn't even true. Even if it were, this is moving the goal posts. You claimed earlier that Oslo led to unprecedented peace and calm. Now the complaint is that the PLO/Fatah didn't do these attacks, and somehow Israel is to blame for not 'negotiating' with Hamas and PIJ in 1993. First of all, the PA was charged with preventing the attacks as a condition of the Oslo accords. The May 1994 agreement says that the PA shall "take all measures necessary to prevent" terrorists operating on its territory from attacking Israelis". It didn't do this. Not even close. The PLO police even hired Hamas members for their "vice department" (who murder people for committing acts of 'immorality'). The PLO was completely chummy with Hamas in the years immediately after Oslo, signing a 'Document of Honor' in 1993. Arafat pressured Israel to release Hamas members held by Israel, including Sheikh Yassin. The PLO's foreign minister, Faruq Qaddumi, said that "no one can complain about what Hamas and Jihad are doing. I say it is the right of every Palestinian to struggle so long as there is a single Israeli soldier in the land of Palestine."

http://www.meforum.org/301/focus-on-hamas-the-plos-friend-or-foe

Second of all, even if Fatah didn't personally carry out attacks (which it did, factions of the PLO, including Fatah, carried out 20 armed attacks from 1994-1995 alone), Hamas leaders have admitted that they carried out attacks on orders from Arafat, at the very least in 2000. But Arafat had that kind of clout with Hamas in 2000, why on earth would anyone believe he didn't have that kind of clout earlier, especially considering the other statements/agreements made?

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?ID=189549&R=R1

Third, you make it seem like Hamas and PIJ were just aching to 'negotiate' with Israel, and only Israel's recalcitrance prevented it..What you're also leaving out is that in 1988 Fatah/PLO, in order to gain power as the head of the Palestinian movement with Arafat installed as leader, accepted UN Resolution 181, calling for a two-state solution and thereby recognizing the legitimacy of Israel. Hamas gained influence among Palestinian militants by being rejectionist, and followed up Fatah's acceptance of pragmatism with their extremist Covenant, which states (among other things) " that all Palestine is Islamic trust land, can never be surrendered to non-Muslims and is an integral part of Muslim world". It cites the forged Protocols of the Elders of Zion as legitimate documents, declares that negotiations and international conferences are a waste of time, and blames Jews for the French and Russian revolutions."

How does one negotiate with groups that reject negotiations on principle?

how does one read that wall o text?

You can always count on Putin for a thorough argument :) I'm gonna have to agree with him here

"That's simply not true. The US hands out tens of millions in "Migration Assistance", as one example. The US also gives Israel loan guarantees worth billions of dollars, and tens and hundreds of millions in aid for a plethora of research and business development programs. Israel also makes an unknown amount of money by turning around and selling US military technology to countries like China."

You misunderstand what I mean. I was making the point that Israel's only source of military aid is the US, whereas the Arab states get military aid from all over the place, including the US. As for selling stuff to China, every time Israel tries to do anything with China, the US blocks it.

"http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/1196/9611009.htm"

This 'report' is 14 years old and comes from a Holocaust denying website that calls Israelis "Zionazis".
http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0598/9805028a.html
http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0695/9506122.htm

"Yes, it is the big carrot which keeps in line the only nation that presents a real military threat to Israel. Israeli foreign ministers have in years past publicly threatened to have US aid to Egypt cut if Egypt didn't 'behave' by being more aggressive about enforcing Israel's Gaza blockade."

So the US is beefing up a key military rival of Israel in the Middle East. Israeli diplomats can't cut American military aid to Israel, so I don't know what you're talking about here.

As wikileaks has revealed, Egypt has successfully resisted any US pressure to do much of anything, and is using US military aid to do little more than try to achieve military parity with Israel, instead of fighting terrorism or ending smuggling or doing anything helpful for a country that is pouring money into it. Israel votes with the US 91% of the time in the UN, more than any other country. Egypt doesn't do jack, but we're supposed to all believe it'd be in America's best interests to stab Israel in the back and support the Arabs.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4007169,00.html

"All to aid Saudi Arabia in a future conflict against Iran - a conflict of which Israel is the biggest booster. I would also note that those F-15s are now about 25 years old, while Israel gets the latest and greatest fruits of the military-industrial complex (F-35s)."

The number of F-15s that Saudi Arabia substantially exceeded that of Israel even before this deal. Now Saudi's F-15s will number well over 200. And these are advanced F-15 Strike Eagles. And these F-15s are just one part of the deal, the Saudis also got 70 advanced Apache fighter helicopters, 72 Black Hawks, and 36 Little Birds. Saudi's attack helicopter fleet now exceeds Israel's by more than 3 times. Saudi Arabia's combat capable aircraft as of now totals 280, which is third behind Israel and Iran, Israel having 424 and Iran having 312.

People can pretend Saudi military capability is ring-fenced for fighting Iran, and a whole slew of fighter planes, radar technology, and other goodies doesn't help them in overall defense. We can also pretend that Saudi Arabia didn't specifically request advanced radar because of the impending sale of F-35s to Israel. We can also pretend that Saudi Arabia doesn't financing anti-Israeli terrorism (and Wahhabi terrorism around the world), including Hamas, and that we're giving them $60 bln worth of "outdated" military [because unless we give them F-35s which aren't even ready until 2015, it's all outdated]

"Whoopdeedo. That's less than $100 per Palestinian, most of which goes to PA kapos whose chief job is keeping other Palestinians on the reservation. Israel, on the other hand, receives many times that amount of aid per capita."

It goes to the UN, refugee agency, not the PA. UNRWA money does not go to the PA. The US gave over $500 to the PA on top of the refugee aid money. By contrast, the US phased out economic grant aid to Israel completely in 2008.
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf

But there's no winning with you, if the US gives $770 million in humanitarian aid to Palestinians per year, even Palestinian refugee groups, it's to "kapos" (nice job comparing Palestinians in the PA to Jewish concentration camp guards...carrying on with the glorious Israelis = Nazis motif. Let me guess, Hamas and PIJ are the Ghetto uprisers in your book?) Meanwhile the heroic Arab states don't give even close to that amount in humanitarian aid, and we're to believe that the US is helping to oppress the poor Palestinians, while the Arab states - who have slaughtered more Palestinians than the Israelis ever have or will - really care about the Palestinian 'cause'.

"But Israel in recent years has completely avoided house-by-house urban combat, instead opting for artillery and air strikes. Those are not the kind of tactics that keep "civilian casualties quite low" - a claim for which we have only the word of IDF spokes-hacks, since the IDF has perfected the art of media control."

Air strikes have become very very accurate, as even critics of Israel admit.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2008-02-24-israeliair_N.htm

Do you deny that house-to-house fighting occurred in the Gaza war?
http://www.euronews.net/2009/01/05/israeli-tanks-planes-and-ground-forces-have-steppped-up-attacks-on-gaza/
Or that militants hide among civilians and use hospitals and mosques as operational bases?

"I'm sure the tens of thousands of Palestinians who have been killed by Israelis over the years are just thrilled to know they weren't killed because of their race or religion."

Where did you come up with this number 'tens of thousands'? Made it up?

Palestinian deaths in the 1st intifada - 1300
Palestinian deaths in the 2nd intifada - 4500
Gaza War - 1200

Jordan's butchery of Palestinians in 11 days in September 1970 was (on the conservative side) - 3400. Syria slaughtered 20,000 Arabs in three weeks in 1982.
Why no shouts of 'genocide' or comparisons to Nazis there?

"For the life of me, I can't think of another country that encourages and even subsidizes its citizens to move into a war zone."

Try virtually every Muslim country in the Middle East re: Chechnya, Bosnia, and Afghanistan. Unless you don't count decapitating people and then settling down afterward as 'moving'.

"More people are killed by Israeli cluster bombs dropped in South Lebanon in a war that ended five years ago now than are killed in Sderot by homemade rockets launched from Gaza. The people of South Lebanon, Gaza, and the West Bank have been doing your little exercise for thirty years now, and face far greater dangers and hardships than the people of Sderot. We all know their answer to your question."

That's not from lack of trying. And we won't quibble over the fact that Hamas is firing indiscriminately with inaccurate weapons at an entirely civilian area that has no military purpose whatsoever (with explosive materials smuggled in from Egypt, that great American ally), while the wars in Lebanon and Gaza targeted the militants who had persistently been attacking Israel.

The people of South Lebanon surely have been suffering a great deal, thanks to the PLO and the Palestinian movement. We should ask ourselves, why did Israel invade Lebanon in 1982? Could it be because the PLO had camps of thousands spread throughout southern Lebanon (including foreign mercenaries) - numbers which were growing and could not be stemmed by commando raids - and had been engaging in rampant acts of terrorism even after their supposed 'ceasefire' in 1981? What had the PLO been doing to the people of Lebanon since their arrival after being kicked out of Jordan in 1970? Militarizing the refugee population, terrorizing the population, subverting the government's authority, becoming a state within a state [anybody ever heard of the Damour massacre?] PLO actions caused an arms race between various Lebanese groups, leading to a disastrous decades-long civil war which Lebanon has never recovered from.

Why are there problems in the West Bank and Gaza? Could it be because the Arabs have never given up their goal of seeking the destruction of Israel, rejecting a state and launching a war of aggression in '48. If they wanted a state, why didn't they get one when Jordan and Egypt were in charge for 20 years? Instead they embraced their Jordanian 'citizenship'. Today Jordan is 75% Palestinian, yet nobody is calling for a 'Palestinian state' in Jordan, happy to let it be ruled by Hashemite monarchs.

It's remarkable that when Palestinians weren't engaging in intifadas, they enjoyed prosperity and growth under Israeli rule.

The World Bank reported that, "the economy of the OT grew rapidly between 1968 and 1980 (average annual increase of 7% and 9 percent in real per capita GDP and GNP respectively), triggered by a number of factors, including the rapid integration with Israel and the regional economic boom. In the early years of the occupation, there was a sharp expansion in the employment of unskilled Palestinian labor in Israel and a rise in incomes, which in turn spurred domestic economic activity, especially in the construction sector. Earnings of Palestinian workers in Israel rose from negligible levels in 1968 to almost one quarter of GNP in 1975."

http://www-wds.worldbank.org/servlet/WDSContentServer/WDSP/IB/1993/09/01/000009265_3970311123238/Rendered/PDF/multi0page.pdf

So, in conclusion. Palestinian suffering is of their own making.

@Tolstoy
"For the life of me, I can't think of another country that encourages and even subsidizes its citizens to move into a war zone."
Sderot (20,000 citizens, established 1951) is not a war zone. Be'er Sheva (200,000 citizens, established 10th century BC!) is not a war zone. Ashkelon (112,000 citizens, established in modern era at 1948) is not a war zone. All these are Israeli cities that existed before the Palestinians called themselves Palestinians, before the PLO was established (1964) and before the Hamas was established (1987).

So please, get your facts straight. I happen to live within rocket range from Gaza, including most of my family, so if you have any questions - just ask. Don't assume, and don't claim things that are simply wrong.

"I was making the point that Israel's only source of military aid is the US"

Too bad it's illegal. But I guess that never stops the American taxpayer from bending over and taking it in the ass when Israel demands it.

1) Israel has nukes

2) The Foreign Assistance Act of 1961 was amended by the Symington Amendment (Section 669 of the FAA) in 1976. It banned U.S. economic, and military assistance, and export credits to countries that deliver or receive, acquire or transfer nuclear enrichment technology when they do not comply with IAEA regulations and inspections.

1 + 2 = ALL US foreign aid to Israel is illegal. So Israel gets exactly what they want, when they want it at the expense of the American taxpayer.

"Palestinian suffering is of their own making."

So if someone tells you at gunpoint to leave your home and you decide to throw a rock at them in defiance, the fact that you are now dead is your own fault? Is that correct?

Israel denies to Palestine exactly what it demands from the rest of the world...recognition.

Israel can get fucked.

if everybody is ready with this discussion, couls someone who has read it make a recapulation (if its wrong i have a wrong translator :)) for the slow readers under us who are really interested??

@Darwyn

Over 1600 missiles and mortars on peaceful population in half a year is not exactly throwing a rock, is it?

Did you read the first part of my question? That's where you Israeli firsters always shit the bed and it epitomizes your disdain for brown people.

Israel can get fucked.

And again, Israel denies to Palestine exactly what it demands from the rest of the world...recognition.

@Darwyn

First, if you want to have a civilized discussion, start talking civilized.

Second, what is this disdain for brown people? What brown people are you talking about?

Third, in case you didn't notice, Israel actually talks with Abu Mazen, recognizes the PLO right to govern its territory, and etc. Israel WANTS to have a Palestinian country and government nearby, instead of the chaos that rules the Palestinian territories now. It will lead to prosperity of both sides.

The problem is that there are radicals on both sides. Hamas does not recognize Israel, and openly states that it wants Israel eliminated. There are stupid and racist fucks on Israeli sides as well (look at Shas party or Liberman). However, it is widely accepted in Israel that Palestinians deserve their own state. On the other hand, Israelis fear that the Palestinian state will be a state of terror, which is not so absurd - just look at what's going on in Gaza VS other territories. While Gaza, which is governed by Hamas, is suffering from economic and health problems, other Palestinian territories that are governed by the PLO actually prosper.

People want peace. The problem is that there are extremists on both sides. Luckily, in Israel, extremists are kept down by the court system and they are a small part of the government. Unfortunately, under Hamas reign, the extremists are clearly on top.

The moment Hamas will say they want peace, there will be peace.

palestine of course

"Second, what is this disdain for brown people? What brown people are you talking about?"

You immediately asked about rockets (ie you blamed Palestinians, aka the brown people) and ignored what caused this conflict in the first place. Which AGAIN is precisely this: Israel denies to Palestine exactly what it demands from the rest of the world...recognition.