Do you believe that the people behind 9/11 were not Muslims?

That disgusts me as much as anything else this abomination has said or done.

A provocation? Building a place of worship is now a "provocation?"

Why?

Because they're Muslims, because it's Islam?

Not to play the obiwanobiwan vs. fundamentalists card again, but why do I get the feeling Ms. Palin would be just fine if it was a CHURCH that was being built there?

And "Peace-seeking Muslims...Ground Zero mosque is UNNECESSARY provocation"?

Not only is this a provocation now, but far worse, now it's "if you want peace, Muslims, stay out or else?"

Maybe I'm just hot on the trigger here, but this just seems like ouright bigotry to me, I understand the tenuous nature of the idea of a mosque there, but to say that it's a provocation and, further, to refer to them as "Peace-seeking" Muslims as if they had best keep a peace they should have outright in this nation...

Ms. Palin, you depress me and, what's more, you utterly repulse me.

If you EVER get elected...well, English friends, what's a nice, theatre-and-sports heavy part of England that you'd recommend, because if Palin is ever in a position of power here, I may just have to ship...

I believe they were. but as a politician who will be trying for president in 2012, and in a diversified nation like this, she needs to learn how to convey such messages without being so offensive. what i wasn't suprised at was her stupidity.

I'm happy to be among the crowd of people who will rip on Palin, but this is one instance where I think she conveyed a message in a pretty thoughtful way. What exactly was offensive about her message?

If a bunch of radical Christians hi-jacked an Iranian plane(s) and ran it into a building, I'm rather skeptical that plans to build a Christian cultural center/church near the site would be well be received by many of the proponents of this project.

no fan of Palin mind you, just seems a bit odd.

@Jerkface:

See my above response...none of that seems offensive?

Palin getting elected is when I stop using non-violent tactics altogether.

assuming 9-11 happened exactly like the official story says (which is a whole other can of worms, not to mention a tangent) the high-jackers are no more muslims than the westboro baptist church or mcveigh are christians.

straight up bigotry. Muslims are just americas convienent enemy now that the cold war is over.
adam curtis has a really good documentary on the subject. power of nightmares I think its called

I don't think there is any sense in trying to make outlandish equations between two very very different religious systems. We all know that they are very unequal. Case in point, non-Muslims are not even allowed entry to Mecca and Medina. I don't think it's fair to think of Islam as equivalent to Christianity, as if Islam is merely the Christianity of the east. The situation is far more nuanced than that.

obiwan, in your prior post, you don't really respond to Palin's words. What was the issue, again? Just that she addressed her message to "peace-seeking Muslims" instead of all Muslims?

No, the problem is that she is stepping in and opposing the building of a mosque at all. Calling it "provocation" she casts modern conflict as being between the west vs Islam.
And I'm sorry, but it's exactly the same kind of attitude that leads you to say things like "We all know [Christianity and Islam] are very unequal." Unequal in what sense? They are not the same thing in that the beliefs are different sure. But I would like to know who you think you are to say that "Islam isn't the equal of Christianity" and frankly, they are equal, from the standpoint of the constitution which maintains that the government shall enact no law limiting freedom of religion.

As a public figure, it seems fully appropriate that she step in and make a statement. People do this all the time. I don't see the connection between the use of the word "provocation" and blowing the issue up to some epic west vs Islam contest. Certainly people will think this, but it doesn't come as a result of her choice to use the word "provocation."

Lest I be accused of falsely claiming to be an expert at anything, I'm not. I don't know much about either Islam or Christianity. But what I do know has led me to reject the notion that each is simply the flipside of a coin. They are just very different. Things that are so different are inherently unequal. Palin does not speak from a constitutional perspective or a governmental one. She speaks for herself so the fact that all religions are viewed as equal by the US Government (which I absolutely agree with), doesn't mean that we all, as individuals, must adopt such a simple view.

Well....as an aspiring government official I still think a statement like that is inappropriate. If she were a public figure with no interest in running for public office that would be a totally different thing.
And yes, Islam and Christianity are different. But, it's not a simplistic view to say that just because something is different it's not equal to that which is familiar. I just don't think its appropriate for someone who wants to be president to start getting up and saying "we shouldn't build a mosque here, that's a provocation!" And I'm not saying she created this whole "west vs. Islam" narrative completely using that word that one time she said something. That has been an ongoing undercurrent in popular western discourse for the past decade. She's just buying into and propagating an already well developed theme with that statement. My issue with Mrs. Palin's statement runs deeper than simply the content of what she's saying.

@Jerkface:

First, I think the Mecca/Ground Zero parallel you draw is, pardon me, shockingly bad, as Mecca is a religious city, has been the Great Holy City of this religion for thousands of years, and as such there I think there's a certain amound of leeway and understanding to be had, as really this is one instance where religion can be used as an excepting tool, the same way we don't and can't dock Jews for missing work due to Yom Kippur, as the Jews not working on that day is an age-old religious tradition, is sacred to those people, and as such we have to respect that.

New York City, however, is billed as, and has always been, the great melting pot of America, from the first settlers to Ellis Island and on- EVERYONE gets to live and be equal in that city. That includes Muslims.

So as NYC is, by its nature, a very open city to all races and religions, I don't think it can be likened to Mecca, which is something of an opposite.

In regards to what I find offensive and take issue with:

-Firstly the overall issue, namely, that there should be an uproar over their wanting to build a mosque; granted I'm the last person in the world to support churches and temples and mosques, I don't like them at all, but if they're going to be around then all should have an equal right to build, especially in American, which is billed as a land of equality, and especially in NYC, a city billed as being rich in its diversity and celebrating that fact. Now, I'm not a NYer, so I can't attest to their pain as being NYers there on 9/11, but I will say this- as long as they're not building a mosque right on the spot where the Twin Towers were (I believe the article says they want to build this strucutre two blocks away) and as such "supplant" those towers, I see the tenuousness of building there, but cannot deem it wrong.

-Palin's comments, first of all, on a mere political level, just display a real sense of irresponsibility verbally on her part, and that's not exactly the kind of person I want defending my country and acting as a prospective Commander in Chief or higher-up in such an administration...I don't want her for that job for other reasons anyway, but those aside, this is just one more nail her coffin for me.

-Second, that message implies that if Muslims want peace, they must cancel their plans to build a religious structure. How does that NOT sound offensive, suppose someone said to you (assuming you're Christian, if not...pretend...) as you were about to build a church on land that you were allowed to build on "Build that church here and you're in for a world of trouble, mister." How would that be right? I wouldn't call her comments threatening, but they stop only just short...

-Further, this lumping of all Muslims with the terrorists of 9/11 in this fashion MUST STOP. This is totally inappropriate and against everything we should stand for as a nation, this is no better than when we interned all Japanese Americans just because the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. To treat our own people in this way, either as second-class citizens or "citizens we must 'watch'" is an utter disgrace. To link the Muslim populace of America with those Muslims who hurt America that day is not only logically incorrect, not only politically incorrect, but simply morally and ethically incorrect.

-And yes, I do take issue with her saying "Peace-SEEKING Muslims," as if they, as American citizens, should have to seek peace! AS if it should not be granted by the fact they are, regardless of their faith, like any Christian or Jew or Buddhist or Atheist beneath this flag, AMERICANS!

-Finally, do you not see a pattern in "Death Panel" Palin's little Internet messages? That little lie about the health care bill (yes, it was an outright lie, I don't care how much you hate that bill, and you might be right for doing so, I can't judge that yet, but there were *no* death panels or plans to practice eugenics), other little tidbits, this...Ms. Palin seems to enjoy throwing Americans into a mass frenzy, she's very nearly a rather prominent Internet troll, just eliciting mass hysteria on little to no grounds!

How are those, sir, for reasons?

@Mafialligator:

Your first statement- on the nose, my friend...

I think I understand where you're coming from. It sounds like you don't have a problem with the tone or way she expressed her message, but you have a problem with the message itself. But on the other hand, we cannot ignore the fact that to many people (conveniently in her target constituency) the building of a mosque, which is actually not a mosque but a "community center" of some sort, IS a provocation.

Whether one thinks that the hijackers were actually Muslim or not, they CLAIMED to be Muslim. To many people, a mosque/community center in Manhattan looks like a testament to the fine job these folks did in taking down two big buildings. It is not only seen that way by people in the US but also by some radical "Muslims" around the world.

"And yes, Islam and Christianity are different. But, it's not a simplistic view to say that just because something is different it's not equal to that which is familiar."
I think it is. What evidence have you that these two religions are "equal"? What does this equality mean anyway?

@ obiwan
"First, I think the Mecca/Ground Zero parallel you draw is, pardon me, shockingly bad"
I made no such parallel. You misunderstand me.

On your first point, I generally agree. However, this struck me: "all should have an equal right to build"
Nobody is infringing on anybody's right to build anything. Palin is appealing to the people building and supporting the building, not bossing them around.

Your second point is incoherent. Please stick to her text.

"Second, that message implies that if Muslims want peace, they must cancel their plans to build a religious structure." I don't see this implication. I saw nothing in her message that looked like a threat. She doesn't mention anything about "if Muslims want peace they better do x, y, and z". She is merely appealing to Muslims who want peace.

"Further, this lumping of all Muslims with the terrorists of 9/11 in this fashion MUST STOP." Couldn't agree more. And I see you agree with Palin on this point as she carefully made the appropriate distinction.

I don't understand your next point.

I absolutely agree that she writes and says very inappropriate things. I disagree most of the time, almost all of the time, with what she says and thinks. In this instance about the mosque/community center, I also disagree. I think it should be built. Alls I'm saying is that she expressed herself well and put up, to my opinion, a respectable statement giving a coherent reason against the mosque. I happen to sit on the other side of the fence from her but I am impressed that she managed this.

Also, I'm no Christian. And I don't hate the health care bill.

Bullshit topic. Palin is ****A***** voice in this argument. Why don't you talk to New Yorkers and get their opinion. Besides, Palin Tweeted it to followers....the PRESS made it a public issue, not Palin. Funny how Palin isn't allowed the same freedom of speech that we want to give Islamic extremists....

and yes, Islamic extremists have a voice in this country. I hear them interviewed on the radio all the time - Detroit has the largest Islamic population in teh country (I believe), and the Arab Islamic American council or something like that is always speaking up when Islamic issues come into the media...and suprisingly, Americans are *always* wrong, Islam is always misunderstood...even when assholes go shooting up military bases, etc. So, the problem in this case isn't really Palin, and it really isn't even 9/11. the problem is that the Islamic mouthpieces in this country are far, far too often on the wrong side.

It would be like the Japanese American Council leadership in World War II saying Japan was just misunderstood. No...not true. Islam DOES have radical elements. MANY radical, extremist elements and they blow shit up all over the world. Just ask some hovel in Africa that recently got blown up.

Sorry...the problem with Islam is not the few people that are misunderstood -- yes, there are many "peaceful" Islamic followers....and *they* need to start being a little more vocal about their extremists brothers and sisters and help fight against them instead of standing mute. If they are *American* first, then this shouldn't be a problem. That problem is too many Muslims...even the "peaceful" ones...are Muslims first.

It's like when the cop shows up in the ghetto to find out who shot the kid dead in teh street. 50 people milling around...Nobody saw nothin 'cause they ain't gonna rat out one of their own to the man. Yes...this is a recent story in Oak Park, Michigan from about a week. Kid shot dead at a public pool on a 90 degree day...tons of people...nobody saw nothin...Islam seems to follow the same principles...

There - that should irk a few people. :P

@obiwan Are you sure it's not the messenger and not the message? I know Palin is often blunt and poorly thought out with her statements, but she does has a point this time. I would think that peace seeking Muslems would have the sensativity not to build a mosque so close to ground zero, even though the act was carried out by extremist. After all we are asked to be sensative to their religion and culture why do they not reciprocate. As barn3tt points out it would not tolerated if the roles where reversed with a simular act in Tehran, or Riyadh. Hopefully this was just an over sight by someone. Perhaps if they had dedicated the mosque to the victums of 9/11 it would have been seen in a different light..

Oh obiwan I don't see christiians banning people from entering vatican city, hmmmm. I don't see people being banned from any christian site for being a certain religion or race. If you aren't a people of the book, fe a hindu you are a subhuman and a pagan to be forcibly converted, and people of the book don't have it much better.

Islam is still living in the 14th century and bring down all of the middle east. The most logical and fairminded nation in the mid east is turkey and they need a damn military coup every once in a while. Hell islam is a religion and deserves proper rights but its so damned intertwined with government in the me its hard to distinguish between the two and the muslims allow themselves to be spoken for by extremists and fundementalists. And THAT is the real problem the major mouthpieces and envoys of islam want to blow themselves up or have someone blow up.

My question is why the fuck should anything be built on the site of 911 it should be a damn memorila site not a building zone for anything. This is so obviously a provocation by whoever wanted that mosque built, they want to create anger and cry foul and racism.

And I wouldn't want a fucking mosque there either tbqh.

@Jerkface:

The "provocation" is, though, perhaps the worst of the lot, and I'm surprised not more people are up in arms here about that...and actually, reflecting on that, it's probably because they're cool and rational enough to not fall into the trap that's laid here.

By saying that this mosque is a "provocation," and by adressing none other than simple the Muslim community, this leads toa dangerous implication of the words overall:

By saying all of this, Ms. Palin has essentially made it out that we are, in fact, in some capacity, in a War on Islam, not a War on Terror.

Her words are to the point- "peace-seeking," "provocation," and she adresses all Muslims, thereby not distinguishing between American Muslims and peaceful Muslims and the extremists on any other way than "peace-SEEKING."

And I again must ask- if they are American citizens, why should they have to seek a peace they are entitled to naturally, and if she is adressing the Nation of Islam as a whole, then she has in effect stated that we are at war with a faction of that Nation, and that if they want a peace with America, they'd best not build this mosque.

Now, to be clear, I'm not saying the 9/11 attackers weren't Muslim. Probably they were. But I ask you- would you hold up the crusaders in Medevial times who killed innocent Jew and Muslim women and children once conquering Jerusalem examples of good Christians? Or the Jews that in the Bible played a hand in Jesus' demise, woudl we hold them up as examples of what we should think of when we say "Jew?"

The only distinguishing remark is "peace-seeking," implying either Muslims, as a whole, since there's no other distinguishing remark given, must acquiesce and not build their mosque, or else it's a "provocation."

Now building a mosque is a provocation.

And note, again, that she is adressing all Muslims here- are we to take it that building a mosque is a provocation against America?



If so, I'd like to ask...why? Why is this a provocation or attack? Building a mosque is an attack? They build mosques before 9/11 here, they surely wouldn't have faced such oppostion to their plan to build a mosque if Muslims they *were not affiliated with* hadn't committed an act they had nothing to do with and had no control over, and now to build one after is a provocation?

Since they're not blowing up buildings with that mosque, it seems to me the statement is that building a mosque near Ground Zero is almost another attack, a provocatioin...

But for THAT to be the case, we would have to be at war with Islam itself, now, wouldn't we? These people aren't affiliated with any other group, not Hezbollah or Hamas or Al Queada or anything else, all thy're affiliated with is Islam, so if they're provoking, it must be on behalf of Islam...

This is doing more than lumping in an innocent group of people with criminals- this is criminalizing and demonizing an entire faith, saying that if they DARE build their building, it's a provocative action.

Again, to test this- would there be an outcry if it was a church? A synagogue? A Buddhist temple?

Only a mosque, and the only thing that's different in the cases for a church or a mosque is that the attackers on 9/11 were Muslim.

Again- the attackers at Pearl Harbor were Japanese...did that make it right to intern honest and innocent Japanese Americans?

The only connection here is that the attackers happened to be Muslim...does that make it right to cut short their building plans when any other religion would have been accepted without protoest?

@centurion1:

Way call an entire people backward, I salute your committment to blindness and bigotry...

@warspite:

Again, I ask, for the umpteenth time- if they are AMERICAN CITIZENS, then why should they have to seek peace at all? They should have the same open rights as any American of any race or religion; all that ties them to the attack is an ancestral, religious bond, like the Japanese Americans after Pearl Harbor- was restricting their rights by interning them right?

Go Palin! First reasonable thing from her orifice.

Don't you love the way her eyes sparkle?

Hey, if you are going to bag my sweetheart, also bag the National Republican Trust.

Long story short:

They have every legal right to build Islamic centers in any area that is legally zoned for religious purposes (and I'm no expert on zoning laws, but I figured there would be at least SOME restrictions).

I mean, from my perspective as an atheist, if any particular group of people who believe in mythical shit want to build whatever they want... as long as they're not physically harming anybody, they can.

All religions are equally nutty in my view. All have equal rights to follow their faith in this great Republic (with the aforementioned caveat that they not actually physically harm anybody... which is why the Westboro nutjobs get away with being that repugnant).

You don't have to like it. In fact, you can rail against it(Free Speech for all!). But what you can't do is use the apparatus of government to deny their rights to do this.

Obiwan before you throw around inflammatory words like bigot around why don't you read something. I said their governments are backwards and as a result the people are as a whole impovershed and the majority of the population is backward by western standards, whixh are modern economical standards of the day. Just like severly poor anywhere, the problem is so many muslims in islamic countries are impovershied.

Are you trying to debate the fact the majority of muslim countries are backwards by our western standard?

And do not try to talk about the crusade unless your really really ready to go there and have an inkling about what your talking about.

The first crusade was launched because seljuk turks banned all christians from entering jerusalem our most holy city. The crusade was launched, and then years of warfare continued which led to three more crusades.

ATROCITIES WERE COMMITED ON BOTH SIDES AND PLENTY OF CHRISTIAN CIVILIANS WERE MURDERED AS WELL. Where did you learn about the crusade kingdom under heaven. They are the most biased anti europeanized wars on earth because the new status quo for professors of history is to make western europe look like the harbingers of doom for the rest of the worl

If they're going to build the mosque two blocks away, that's fine. If they were going to build it across the street from Ground Zero, I don't think that would be well-liked by many Americans. The site itself should be free from any religious affiliation. It should be a secular memorial if anything.

This is not about interning people or infringing on their rights or any goverment action, but asking them to be more understanding and senseative to those who are still alive. Is that to much to ask? If they are peace seeking what's wrong with them taking the extra step of making a dedication to those killed? If they are really mean they deplore the acts it would go the a long way in healing of bad feelings. Also why do you and others not mention the German and Italian Americans wrongly interned?

Also If you want to bring up the ancient history of the crusades what about the Muslem conquest and conversion by force of the Christian lands in N Africa, a large area of Iberia, Egypt, Palistine, Lebanon, Syria, Asia Minor, and large areas of the Bulkans, and the Caucasus.