Forum
A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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superman98 (118 D)
20 Jan 10 UTC
What the heck??????
Hey guys:

I just checked my moderator thing on my profile, and figle thinks I am Bearnstien!! Please tell me how it is possible to think that!!!!!!!!!!!!!
107 replies
Open
happyjo (330 D)
20 Jan 10 UTC
Game restart
MOD can you restart the following game caused by Rooster man being kicked out.
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=18531
6 replies
Open
Hibiskiss (631 D)
20 Jan 10 UTC
Sitter needed
Do I ask here? :3 I've never requested one before.
I am out of town through Monday evening and planned to play from my phone like usual but I just had bad orders I couldnt change because it doesn't load using the iPhone anymore.
My league and masters games have been paused too much already so I don't want to do that.
5 replies
Open
DJEcc24 (246 D)
19 Jan 10 UTC
Team Toronto Sub (Webdip World Cup)
how is the sub for geo coming along?
4 replies
Open
jeromeblack (129 D)
20 Jan 10 UTC
Live Game in 4 Hours
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=19573

Join It!
Starts in 4 Hours
0 replies
Open
kestasjk (95 DMod(P))
17 Jan 10 UTC
0.98 update
This update fixes up some World variant links, and makes some minor changes to the map that make things more efficient and look slightly better (no more wonky order-fail-red-cross)
But as always there may be bugs, though this is a fairly minor bug-fix release so hopefully not, but let me know here if you spot anything
24 replies
Open
curtis (8870 D)
20 Jan 10 UTC
Needs a new player for Turkey...
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=19416

The old turkey was a turkey that was banned from the site...
1 reply
Open
superman98 (118 D)
20 Jan 10 UTC
New Live Game!!!!!- Anon WTA!!!!
Here is a new Live game! 10 D to join, 5min. phases, anon players, Winner Takes All, starts at 3:15p.m. E.T. Please join!!
gameID=19567
14 replies
Open
superman98 (118 D)
19 Jan 10 UTC
Quick Question
Hello! I am wondering how people become mods on this site, because it is all quite strange to me. On other sites similar to this people go from being a regular player to being a mod! Please explain!
51 replies
Open
chad! (157 D)
20 Jan 10 UTC
afternoon live
any one interested in a game? gameID=19563 i need five more players!
4 replies
Open
happyjo (330 D)
20 Jan 10 UTC
Can you explain this to me
Can you guys explain to me what has happened in this game, I suspected that someone was or had been multi accounting.
On the main Global it states that someone has been removed but it does not say who, I will cut and paste the statement into the forum.
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=18531
3 replies
Open
Commander Thomas (395 D)
20 Jan 10 UTC
Diplomacy World Map View Game.
I was wondering do you need more than seven players to play? I started a game called Europe or Bust featuring the advanced rules with a world view map and it didn't show on the new games" page. Some of my friends and other players want to join , but they have to click on my username and search for the game by specifying the game. (Variant: World and Pre-game etc.) How do I get it to show on the new games or games column?
2 replies
Open
Panthers (470 D)
20 Jan 10 UTC
15 mins until the best live game ever!!!
http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=19556
2 spots left!

0 replies
Open
Bread (0 DX)
20 Jan 10 UTC
join my game. normal phases
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=19555
0 replies
Open
DingleberryJones (4469 D(B))
20 Jan 10 UTC
Is it possible to see more 'Notices' than are displayed on the Home Page?
The notices show whenever someone joins a game, and whenever the phase changes. I wanted to go back and see the notices from the beginning to the end of a game. Possible?
4 replies
Open
noahjf (0 DX)
19 Jan 10 UTC
Teusday Night Live
I want to have a live game tonight, around 6 PM (Central Time GMT-5), it will be a standard PPSC game with a 50 point buy in, kinda high stakes. If you want in, post it on this thread. I will create the game around 6 PM tonight and post the game ID on this thread at around that time. If not enough people want a 50 point buy in, I might lower it to like 25 or something, just let me know what you think on this thread.

Hope to see everyone around 6 PM
17 replies
Open
spyman (424 D(G))
20 Jan 10 UTC
Racist Australian KFC Ad?
There's debate on youtube at the moment about an ad made by KFC about an Australian cricket fan given chicken to a crowd of West Indian fans during a game of cricket between Australia and the West Indies. Do you think it is racist?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaZMM-MVBMA
20 replies
Open
Soccerstudd12 (100 D)
20 Jan 10 UTC
why wont it let me log off?
what do i need too do differently?
1 reply
Open
idealist (680 D)
20 Jan 10 UTC
goondip
so i signed up today, and when i logged in hours later, it said my account didn't exist.
so i re-registered and checked the forum, which is now empty.
is that normal?
1 reply
Open
Patyrsun (0 DX)
19 Jan 10 UTC
Could a moderatotor look at this game?
Something seems fishy about this game, could a moderatotor take a look at this game?

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=19429
35 replies
Open
curtis (8870 D)
20 Jan 10 UTC
live game 5 min interval 10 pts
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=19524
7 replies
Open
johnfoxarmy (100 D)
20 Jan 10 UTC
live game starts 30 minurwa!!
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=19524
8 replies
Open
hellalt (70 D)
20 Jan 10 UTC
Live Gunboat Anyone?
gameID=19516
10 D, wta, anon, 5min/phase
30 minutes to join!
15 replies
Open
superman98 (118 D)
17 Jan 10 UTC
What You guys say about: God. Is he real?
Hey all. I was wondering what you guys think about whether God exists or not. Your thoughts, and why.

143 replies
Open
DJEcc24 (246 D)
20 Jan 10 UTC
Jesus' Ressurection
what do you all think about this? could the disciples of stolen the body? was Jesus not dead when placed in the tomb? lets have a friendly discussion of opinion. i'm interested in hearing what you witty people think about the subject.
5 replies
Open
zrallo (100 D)
20 Jan 10 UTC
Massachussets Election
Anybody have thoughts on the election?? From where I'm looking, Brown's up 5 D with 8% reporting!! I would be thrilled to see someone like Brown win in such a heavily liberal state
4 replies
Open
mel1980 (0 DX)
20 Jan 10 UTC
Thoughts on this Gunboat game?
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=19516
6 replies
Open
airborne (154 D)
20 Jan 10 UTC
GoonDip Back Online
http://goondip.com/index.php
2 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
18 Jan 10 UTC
Leviathan, Locke, Militarism, Marxism, Rousseau, The Republic... the Ideal State?
Its been asked over and over- what would the perfect state be? How to create it? Who/what occupations play a role in it? What's left out? And WHY build a State in the first place and do away with "the State of Nature?"
One rule going in- ANYONE mentions the "G-word" that turns every debate we have here into theists vs. atheists gone mad.... said person is ignored.
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obiwanobiwan (248 D)
18 Jan 10 UTC
Let's preface our idea with our slants first (so we know where we're all coming from) and go from there, shall we?

I'll go...
Skies (110 D)
18 Jan 10 UTC
The Nordic welfare state seems to work pretty well.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
18 Jan 10 UTC
-I am an American Liberal
-I was born Jewish... and that's as FAR as I'M going with the religion thing! ;)
-I am a huge fan of the Philosophers Nietzsche and Hobbes
-As age IS a factor in this sort of decision... I'll not give my exact age, but say I'm in the 18-21 range

Onto my ideas... where to start...

I think, the first question to answer is- why? Why build a State over staying part of nature in the strictest sense?

I love Hobbes' answer to the question, asn that is mine as well- he/I see people as being desire-pursuing machines, heavily amoral or working off constructed moralities that make them feel good to follow, and, in short, people are out for themselves and, at best, those they care about. Thus, with no rules, everyone fights for everything they want, and its nasty, brutish, and just a short life without some sort of government.

So we set it up... how are we doing so far? Can we agree on that view of what life would be life government free, or do we have people from Hippie schools or Locke schools here to tell us another view of Humans As In The State Of Nature?
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
18 Jan 10 UTC
@Skies:

I'm unfamiliar with that system... describe it for me/the thread? ;)
Thucydides (864 D(B))
18 Jan 10 UTC
Well. As long as we give demographic so you can deconstruct our motives, here are mine:

-I'm a white American guy
-I was born Christian, no longer practicing
-I'm 18 in university
-My politics are independent, slightly left of center (American center)
-I like Hobbes, Descartes, Aquinas, and others.
-Morally, the most important things to me are human rights.

Okay. So the perfect state.

It depends kind of what we mean here, or what we are assuming. Since no perfect state will ever exist, anyway. If we are talking about the world today, as it is, then the perfect state is a liberal democracy which is open, accountable, and protects the rights of everyone. Ideally, it is a one-world government with safeguards for tyranny of the majority and with ethical peacekeeping forces for internal stability. Elections are as direct as possible while still retaining adequate turnout, and there would be multiple levels of government, though the fewer the better. Think a federalist one-world state in which nations are the equivalent of American states, and these nations are divided once more into what are today provinces etc.

That would be the structure anyway. There would be a written Constitution which makes things very certain, and there would be a method for ruling laws passed by the legislature as unconstitutional. I would hope that would not be quite the same as it is with the Supreme Court today. Something a bit more democratic would be nice. Maybe just term limits and I'd be fine.

Anyway. Also there would be one currency, whose value is determined in relation to the value of some commodity like gold etc. The rulership would be a three branch system like in America, though some changes could certainly be made.

You might call me unimaginative, but that really would work better than others. Of course, the assumptions I make here are that it is possible to unify the world and get them to support this government. To implement this thing would take a long and serious hearts and minds campaign. Could last a millennium.

Anyway. Hobbesian absolutism sounds nice, and makes sense, but it relies totally on the moral rectitude of the despot, and of the ability for him to be well enough informed. I suppose in an idealized world, this would make sense. Perhaps if a computer could be built and programmed to be a good leader.... and if it had all the information at its fingertips. A lot of people probably see that as too scary and sci-fi sounding, but that's the only way a Hobbesian absolutist system might actually work.

However, there is no noble savage. Rousseau was nuts. My favorite Hobbes quote is that which describes the true conditions true savages would face, lives that were "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short." He couldn't have been more right about human nature. Or at least human nature which has not undergone any genetic variation.
Skies (110 D)
18 Jan 10 UTC
Obiwan, the ideas behind the nordic model are:

-no barriers to free trade
-high ease of doing business (i.e. not that many regulations)
-privatize public services and keep competition (make schools private, but give out vouchers)
-high taxes
-lots of public spending (a lot of the workforce is in the public sector)
-universal welfare

And also, I get the idea behind your idea to the question, but if it ever came true in real life, we would have total anarchy with no control whatsoever. I'm pro-government and I understand that many of us need someone to tell them the difference between right and wrong, and provide an adequate punishment, otherwise we as a human race would turn out no better than a group of dangerous misfits.

Personally, I think the ideas of morals and ethics aren't constructed artificially (although they can be influenced and altered by the ideas of other people), but that we have them naturally as human beings.
Skies (110 D)
18 Jan 10 UTC
And now for the demographics:

I'm a brown Canadian guy (a rarity here, I know).
I was born Hindu, but more of an atheist now.
As for politics, I'm slightly left-wing, but generally open-minded.
And I'm still in high school.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
18 Jan 10 UTC
Well that's an interesting model, Skies, it sounds like a liberal democracy, which is what I'm into. I would just add that it should be a federalist state, and that is shouldn't, as you say, "privatize public services," if by that you mean things the state should be doing like education, healthcare, post, census, army, that sort of thing.

Privatization is good to a point but when you reach a place where governments are hiring intelligence gathering corporations that know more than the CIA to do their intelligence work, you have a problem. Because in that world, anyone could buy their services. Scary. Think Blackwater.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
18 Jan 10 UTC
As for morals, I think that humans have them in their instincts, but they have strong(er?) instincts which go against morality. In an uncivilized world, these moralistic instincts would rarely shine through because they contravene the most primary instinct, that of self-preservation. If I have like one piece of meat, and a hundred people come up asking for food, I am going to say fuck you and try to kill them if they try to take it. Cause if they take it, I'm gonna die. So that's how life goes without a government which enforces our weaker, but more desirable, moral instincts.
True Democracy with an elected executive branch to oversee daily things.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
18 Jan 10 UTC
@Thucydides:

"Hobbesian absolutism?"

I believe that to be an oxymoron... after all, Hobbes' rationale for saying whatever is "right" is what's "good" for you (that being what you want) was that as there are no absolute, all-reaching and always-applicable (I'd say God-given, but then we run into that debate and we're steering clear this time) laws.

So he does not seem to hold with absolutist views...

And I think we are all ahead of ourselves discussing matters like free trade and currency and democracy and constitutions...

FIRST, if we are setting up a state-

You know, let's do that, right now... just like Plato did in "The Republic": he had his characters imagine and thus "create" in their minds the perfect state...

So- let's build a state, shall we?

Here we are, we're a bunch of human beings, and... well... we're building a state...

There's the first matter to settle before whe decide WHAT the state will be like- WHY do we want a state (and, indirectly, what is our condition WITHOUT a state and just living in a law-free, country free world?)
g50 (100 D)
18 Jan 10 UTC
the perfect state is surely something along the lines of brave new world. a totalitarian system that centralizes, organizes and maximizes people's participation-roles, both strictly enforcing what people can do but also essentially motivating them to do it and like it regardless.

coercion, manipulation, and mirroring are the real issues of statecraft, as nice as the legal equality sort of approach sounds in a speech. as long as a strict regime is standardized in its operations so as not to be needlessly cruel, it is mostly legitimate in its effort to secure, police and structure. as in a kantian state people should be able to think and write whatever they want as long as they obey.

people are like an ant colony, we just have the capacity to really maximize our enjoyment of our ant colony lives and fill it with wonderful people and places and various material possessions. but people are also grown in neat little rows and according to predictable patterns just like corn. the thing about the ideal state will yield a bounteous harvest of corn. (cue soylent green is people)
Rule Britannia (737 D)
18 Jan 10 UTC
A system with:
unilateral free trade.
No government money( as in either gold, or banks produce the money themselves- no government involvement)
everything currently nationalised to be privitized, including the welfare system ( they are now private companies unfunded by tax)
very low taxes- ( flat income and no corporation taxes)
total freedom of speech
to be free to take whatever you want in terms of drugs, and to be able to take them wherever.
free to not employ whoever you want for whatever reason.
Jamiet99uk (808 D)
18 Jan 10 UTC
@ The_Master_Warrior: "True Democracy with an elected executive branch to oversee daily things. "

A bit more detail needed here - what do you regard as 'true' democracy? For example:

1. Does everyone above a certain age get a vote? Or do people have to pass a test or meet certain financial criteria?

2. What do the people get to vote on? Do they just elect a goverment or president every 5 years, or is it more than that?
Jamiet99uk (808 D)
18 Jan 10 UTC
@ RuleBritannia:

I'm going to respond to your points one by one:

"A system with: unilateral free trade."

Ok that's fairly self-explanatory.

"No government money (as in either gold, or banks produce the money themselves- no government involvement)"

No government involvement AT ALL? How would the behaviour of the banks be regulated? You really think the banks can be left to regulate the banking industry themselves? We tried that, and the world economy almost collapsed.

"Everything currently nationalised to be privitized, including the welfare system (they are now private companies unfunded by tax)"

How would the company paying out welfare benefits to unemployed or incapacitated people turn a profit? Where would its income come from?

very low taxes- ( flat income and no corporation taxes)

Again, fairly self explanatory.

"total freedom of speech"

Even when freedom of speech becomes incitement to violence? The Klu Klux Klan should be able to freely parade in the streets encouraging people to kill blacks and burn their homes?

"to be free to take whatever you want in terms of drugs, and to be able to take them wherever."

Who clears up the mess when you overdose?

"free to not employ whoever you want for whatever reason."

Again, understood.

As you will appreciate I completely disagree with your position, but will refrain from dismantling your view until you resolve the queries above, so I can have a full understanding of your viewpoint.
Rule Britannia (737 D)
18 Jan 10 UTC
Ok: gold standard as in what Andrew Jackson had in mid-19th century. He also appreciated the value of tiny government. Indeed, I'd have zero government involvement in money other than police who stop illegal goings on such as insider trading.
The welfare thing: there'd be no welfare obtained from tax. If people were worried about what'd happen there'd be an insurance pool which they could pay money into. Then if they got ill/ lost their jobs they'd have something to fall back on. Basically, national insurance without the national or the re-distribution of wealth.
And on freedom of speech, everything except incitement to murder. So I could say "all blacks are idiots", but I couldn't incite murder by saying : " everyone take up arms and kill all atheists".
Jamiet99uk (808 D)
18 Jan 10 UTC
@ Rule Britannia:

"Ok: gold standard as in what Andrew Jackson had in mid-19th century. He also appreciated the value of tiny government. Indeed, I'd have zero government involvement in money other than police who stop illegal goings on such as insider trading."

Without regulation of the banks' activities, how would we spot insider trading?

"The welfare thing: there'd be no welfare obtained from tax. If people were worried about what'd happen there'd be an insurance pool which they could pay money into. Then if they got ill/ lost their jobs they'd have something to fall back on. Basically, national insurance without the national or the re-distribution of wealth."

What if they got ill or unemployed before they'd had a chance to pay into the insurance fund?

"And on freedom of speech, everything except incitement to murder. So I could say "all blacks are idiots", but I couldn't incite murder by saying : "everyone take up arms and kill all atheists"."

Fair enough.
Serioussham (446 D)
18 Jan 10 UTC
I think he votes BNP, j/k.
Jamiet99uk (808 D)
18 Jan 10 UTC
More like UKIP.
Tantris (2456 D)
18 Jan 10 UTC
I think the perfect state would be that of a benevolent dictator. The only problem is, it usually doesn't last very long. It is the most efficient and most fair. We just need someone to become Havelock Vetinari.
komodosp (100 D)
18 Jan 10 UTC
As we have seen from the above posts, it's impossible to have a perfect world because how do you measure the perfection? Everyone has their own measurement... Some people don't like the idea of foreigners serving them in shops, but others don't like the idea of living in poverty when there are jobs available in other countries.

An interesting post above was the freedom to take any drugs you want. This falls under the right to be an idiot as long as your not harming anyone else. But it assumes that to take the drug is an informed decision. But the problem is if all drugs are legalised, especially addictive ones, then you will have the drug-producers trying to get everyone addicted, you'll have kids and stupid people taking drugs, and they become a burden on society. "If you're stupid enough to take drugs you deserve what you get" I don't agree with. It's sort of like saying if you're stupid enough not to wear a seat-belt, you deserve to die. We will still live in a world of drug-addicts or at least drug-takers. You will still have families destroyed because one member is on drugs. You will still have people high on drugs out committing stupid crimes. Only now it will be legitimised (ok not the crime itself, but the root of it)

As for freedom of speech, the iffy point for me is at the point of slander. It's difficult to be fair when only some people are heard. Someone might print a story condemning an alleged rapist who is still on trial. Then if that rapist is acquitted, and that person is under no obligation to retract that story. Even if they are, you can be sure it won't be front page news on the same dodgy tabloid newspaper. You won't have an A3 size headline, "SICK JOURNALIST CONDEMNS INNOCENT MAN!"

But how to create a perfect world is an entire forum with many sub-fora...
BBanner (203 D)
18 Jan 10 UTC
Andrew Jackson was a bastard of the highest order who literally defied the constitution to steal land from Cherokee. Truly, a believer in small government, so much so that he denied its existence.
orathaic (1009 D(B))
18 Jan 10 UTC
"everything currently nationalised to be privitized, including the welfare system ( they are now private companies unfunded by tax)" - so no militrary or privatised security companies?

not mentioning the police system.

"Without regulation of the banks' activities"... how do you ensure they are keeping to the gold standard (because in the 70's the amount of Gold in the US treasury was controled by the government - however banks, and even private groups can effectively print their own money - create internal credit systems which help the flow of trade - which isn't currently regulated, but in your system wouldn't need to be backed by gold.

ow would you deal with Migration of people?

@Perfect state: first natural state versus perfect state is a wasted question: we naturally search for the path of least resistance, naturally try to use our brains to outthink other animals - useful for hunting, or tools use to take make it easier to find cerain foods - we also use our brains to outthink each other, and build systems to prevent destructive behaviour. That is we 'naturally' build societies/communities, develope laws, and try to find the best/easiest way to do things - thus trying to create the perfect state is natural.


@Hobbes/Obiwan: re: "he/I see people as being desire-pursuing machines, heavily amoral or working off constructed moralities that make them feel good to follow, and, in short, people are out for themselves and, at best, those they care about. Thus, with no rules, everyone fights for everything they want, and its nasty, brutish, and just a short life without some sort of government." - humans are capable of selfish and alturistic behaviour, we are also capable of devising systems to prevent/punish undesirable behaviour (such as stopping theives/bandits from stealing food from farmers - which is the basic reason the feudal system developed)

We are also capable of caring for out local community - a large group of ~200 people, most humans today don't live in such a community - they still put care into seeing their local sports team do well, or their nation succeed. Just because the caring mentality doesn't always scale well with societies increasing size (going from a village of 200 where everyone knows everyone else to a city of 2,000,000 where you gian many efficiencies of scale, the ability of individuals to care about their neighbours does not benifit from these eficiencies of scale) Does not mean that these urges don't exist nor that we can't take advantage of them - in the same sense that manchester united take advantage of the support of their fans, or nations states take advantage of their young males to provide defence to their countries.

My perfect state - currently a work in progress.

Free movement of people, perhaps limited by available accomadation and some waiting time to delay the movement of people - thus allowing local areas to prepare for the migration (say on the order of months not decades)

Free education - to a point, which should include reading, writing, arithimatic, statitical reasoning (for threat assesment) information gathering and verificaiton (to allow individuals to figure out what they think is true) computer use (because it amplifies the advantages of reading)

Mandatory civil service ~2 years - to encourage social involvement/responcibility, whether this is militrary/technical service and training which is *pracical* (as opposed to an almost purely *theoretical* learning we recieve in schools) - this could be integrated into schooling, would provide useful skills to the individual and useful services to society - whether that means plumbing/electricioning skills to a city, or militrary service to a nation, or paramedical skills to a region, or water finding and agricultural skills to a rural region; (think of the germans who are forced into the army at 18 and take advantage of their mandatory service by learning to cook properly and then go on to become professional chefs)

Public Investment in science/technology research - because this should be a public policy issue rather than decisions of private companies - like cloning humans which if it was legal would have multiple competing companies which would be capable of creating new organs for you from a clone which you could harvest when needed, and would even take away the need for anti-rejection meds which current transplant patients require.

public/private partnership done right - because i can see it done wrong in Ireland in some places. Essentially Public investment into infrastrucure (capital investment - thus effectively siding with the communists on who 'owns' the capital) while renting that infrastructure out to private companies (thus taking the capitalist/adam smith approach to encouraging competition and the running of society)

A national voting system to directly elect politicians based on party not local area (unlike the current irish system which encourages people to vote for who they know, and who promises to work for their local community) - one which allows all 'citizens' to vote, but does not require them to - one which upon failure to achieve a certain minimum percentage of the citizens/eligible voters (say 80%) to vote for a cetain position leaves that position empty until a new vote is called for (leaving all current policies in place - policies which should be publically available for free - policies which are implemented by public servants who are not elected, and thus not accountable to anyone but the public and effectively unfire-able with someone elected to be their boss.)

Free health-care for all, paid for by all those who earn - i can't think of a good way to encourage competition between health care professional without leading to worse inefficiences, lies and reputations ruined and individuals losing out - but allowing for the creation of some more efficient system if possible - perhaps take the nordic model as they seem to have the best health care in the world.

An independant judicary, not politically appointed, which is required to interpret the law (and thus allowing for the possibility that the legistative branch is currently unocupied) free representation before the law, assumption of innocence until proved otherwise, no capital punishment - no law firms going looking for accidents which they can sue for; if possible a simpler legal system which reduces the neccesary training to become a lawyer to ~2 years.

Freedom of religion, freedom of collective action, freedom of movement of people and goods, freedom of speech - while consiering it illegal to encourage other to break the criminal law (only criminal law to completely free advocates of reforming civil law - but i'm not sure myself what the distinction between criminal and civil law is, still i want a legal system which is simpler)

Freedom of information - access to public account, it is the freedom of the internet which prevents a 'big brother' society, and i believe that this must continue.

more freedom and responcibility for youth based on competency - so freedom to choose what subjects they take in school, and at what level - the aim being to increase maturity of individuals by making responcibile for their actions at a younger age - to varying degrees - eligibility for voting based on citizenship testing - which can be taken at any age over 12. Non-citizens shall be treated equally before the law but may be given certain opt-outs, as they clearly don't want to be involved in how society runs, they may aswell be be given the freedom to leave - including setting up their own community/commune/free city-state as desired (with perhaps a requirement that they still collect and share the same census data - to avoid people taking advantage of being in both systems - but that's a farily trivial task with modern technology, perhaps not trivial if you need backwards compatibility and re-training of the staff who run these systems... but it is trivial if you are building a new prefect society.)

Privatisation of services other than health, education, and justice and defence.

Heavy taxation of the super rich (~top 20% of earners) with large tax credits given to encourage them to decide how their money is spent to benifit society (so charitable donations, basically incentive for them to become involved/invested in social/community groups) - complete transparency on the spending of both government and these 'charitable' donations, so reporters/members of the general public can judge for themselves whether 'public' spending is being used effectively.
Rule Britannia (737 D)
18 Jan 10 UTC
I mean if you're worried about drug's affects there is a case that you can just tax them very highly. Certainly in the current system, that's what I'd want. But in a perfect system, there'd be no V.A.T or tax on any goods, so there'd be none on drugs.
orathaic (1009 D(B))
18 Jan 10 UTC
Certainly you can tax them to the point where the tax take would cover the medical cost associated with fixing the drugs users, however that doesn't mean the same drugs-users can afford to pay those taxes, and will break the law to either avoid paying the tax or find the money to feed their addiciton.

See your simplistic ideas on taxation to control supply/demand don't neccesarily apply to ALL situation (just as i think your simply ideas for privatised EVERYthing don't work well in pracice) Private policing, Private investigators, Private justice?

Private education, Private Heatlh shcemes, Private militrary?

Honestly, why not Privatize governance itself?
orathaic (1009 D(B))
18 Jan 10 UTC
oh yeah, privatised organ farms to produce enough to supply the demand for replacement (and more people will need replacement organs/children if we liberalise all drug taking...)
g50 (100 D)
18 Jan 10 UTC
orathaic - yours sounds good, except for there is not much of a need for the democratic or freedom based components. the welfare based components are sufficient to outline the goals of mass integrated participation in social institutions. the training, the reading, writing, service, publicly funded research, infrastructure, effective judiciary - these are the real meat of what you're saying. i know that you could make an argument about why the democratic and free speech / assembly are key to holding them together, but they may not really be. what if you have voting which is rigged (senate) or people that police their own speech (in the workforce) and mass surveillance (security)? you still get all the benefits, but it isn't real freedom or democracy as you would imagine ideally. perhaps even more than that, ultimately, freedom and democracy are most meaningful when they are rejecting the sort of programmatic approach - ie your democracy is most democratic when people vote away the mandatory service. there's a conflict, and unless you want to end up like california which avoided its conflict between spending and tax cuts, you need to take a side. do you endorse unmitigated voting and unrestrained freedoms? of course not, ultimately these should only be a ruse - the real social prerogative is all on the side of the "hard stuff" that you mentioned - schools, hospitals, military installations, courthouses, jails, research laboratories. i guess you could say that when it comes to social norms, freedom of speech, assembly and vote are part of the ideal. but when it comes to running the state itself, an ideal state would be one which had its priorities focused on the services and institutions it operates and try to make those as fully productive and effective as possible.
orathaic (1009 D(B))
18 Jan 10 UTC
hmm, actually when it comes to setting up the ideal state you run into some problems... how do you actually change what we have today into my (or anyone else's) ideal?

Plato in the republic talked about it.
Marx talked about (but i haven't read his stuff) Lenin and Stalin actually did it, they turned Russia (which had just surrendered to Germany in the second world war) from an agrarian society into an industrialised world super-power competing only with the US a mere 30 years later. (and much suffering inbetween)

meanwhile for all the complaints about the undemocratic nature of the EU at present it managed to successfully unite all of Europe (after two world wars, and many previous wars) failed to in a completely peaceful way.

Whatever curtailment of democracy it has entailed (the appointment of the European commision effectively by heads of state, while reviewed by the European parliment is one of the big problems people bring up) perhaps democratic governance has proven to be inefficient, however what system you try to run the 'people in charge' need to be accountable to the 'people on the bottom' but i'd rather that the 'people on the bottom' were actually active in their society, and so had varying degrees of relationship with those who ran their local area... and thus felt closer to those at the 'top' - and not just felt, practically were more involved in decision making.
g50 (100 D)
18 Jan 10 UTC
you can only be involved in decisionmaking if you rise through the ranks, and that is how it should be. too many people involved is not a good thing. let the mechanism of accountability be effectiveness - if it works, its accountable.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
18 Jan 10 UTC
@orathaic:

You think people are capable of ALTRUISM?

I must not only heartily disagree but ask with the utmost respect how in the hell you could possibly think that? ;)

Really though... if you do something, logically you are willing, at the VERY least, that the job be done, and you WANT it done, if you're doing it, no matter WHY you are doing it-

-Done to help other people= you still WANT to help other people because a) it will make them feel good and seeing people feel good makes YOU feel good b) you're being forced to help and thus if you help the coercive force will eventually disappear if you help and the job is done and you WANT THAT, c) some variation of those two, and on and on and on...

Altruistic behavior is a fallacy for certain belief systems both religious and scientific in kind (my psychology professor, a student of Carl Rogers, is a great proponent of altruistic behavior... I don't know if my eyebrows ever shot up so high so fast in such a rush to assume the "What the HELL?" face."


And we have yet to answer the FIRST question, people, namely-

WHY????

You're all so keen on setting up your systems, be they 1984-esque ones or perfect-world democracies or something in between...

But you've yet to answer WHY the people of our new state (let's call it Theoretica) should abandon their lvies as happy little just-past-Cro-Magnons and give UP some freedoms to live in your society of rules and ideals...

WHY should people stop living in nature and join our new state of Theoretica?

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jeromeblack (129 D)
20 Jan 10 UTC
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