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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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KingTigerTank (100 D)
25 May 09 UTC
join in for a fast game (12hr)
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=11063
0 replies
Open
Geofram (130 D(B))
24 May 09 UTC
Live Game Implementation.
Is there any plan to implement the option to change the turn length mid-game? Being able to start a game with one hour turns (to give players time to join), then switch to 15 minute turns (not even optional atm) and then when someone can't sit and play any longer, we could all vote to switch it to a normal 25 hour game.

Also, if anyone is interested in playing a live game, I had a press message from NicholasPatrick saying he might try to get another together when he wakes.
1 reply
Open
Redracer78 (100 D)
25 May 09 UTC
New Game
Hi, I'm new to this site but not new to Diplomacy. I just made a new game, 'A Revolution' with 1 hour long turns and a bet of 5.
0 replies
Open
diplomat1824 (0 DX)
22 May 09 UTC
My favorite pet peeve
Having so many units that putting in orders takes forever. Anyone agree?

(This thread is completely benign, provocative posts will be disregarded by me)
64 replies
Open
kurlybon (100 D)
25 May 09 UTC
Very Fast Beginner
A beginnger game at a fair anty--and a fast game to boot.
1 reply
Open
Whosaba (100 D)
25 May 09 UTC
New fast game! 50 point per person. We are new
This game is for newish people. We made the pot at 50. Come join a fast game
0 replies
Open
idealist (680 D)
25 May 09 UTC
Someone please join!!


somebody please take over the game New Frontier for Turkey. It is troublesome when someone you need ditch the game...
2 replies
Open
Whosaba (100 D)
24 May 09 UTC
New game let's get this going quick
http://www.phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=11054

We only need 3 more!
1 reply
Open
dhbrann (101 D)
24 May 09 UTC
How do you leave a game?
Is there a way to leave a game? What happens to your points?
17 replies
Open
TheSleepingBear (100 D)
24 May 09 UTC
Lessons Learned in Italy
Hi all,
This is my first game as Italy: http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=9866 . Please critique, comment, etc., as to my tactics, etc.
11 replies
Open
Submariner (111 D)
24 May 09 UTC
Submariner looking for 'Glory Hole 2' players
12 hour play
19 points to join... An odd number so I'm left with 10 for an impromptu 1 hour turn game :)
3 replies
Open
Crazy Anglican (1067 D)
24 May 09 UTC
"Gunboat" and "no-press" games
Sorry, I couldn't find anything in FAQ to tell me what these games are. Could anyone enlighten me?
6 replies
Open
DingleberryJones (4469 D(B))
24 May 09 UTC
3 Strikes Laws
What do you guys think of 3 strike laws?
13 replies
Open
Snooze (100 D)
24 May 09 UTC
New Game!
Come and Join.

http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=11049
0 replies
Open
amonkeyperson (100 D)
24 May 09 UTC
Lets see if we can try to make my sunday a little less boring on take 2...
1 hour Phases
•Points-per-supply-center
•Buy in: 30
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=11046
10 replies
Open
The General (554 D)
23 May 09 UTC
Do you stay friends?
I would like to know what everyone thinks. If an ally misses a turn and it seems as though he will likely miss the next turn should you attack them, and if that ally comes back after you attack him, should he feel betrayed?
6 replies
Open
Geofram (130 D(B))
23 May 09 UTC
Silly Formal Complaint that Kind of Upset Me
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=11025
25 replies
Open
amonkeyperson (100 D)
24 May 09 UTC
Live game anyone?
•1 hour Phases
•Points-per-supply-center
•Buy in: 30
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=11045
5 replies
Open
12 hour phase game that starts in 6 hours or 3 people
Come on and join, we are newish and the stakes aren't too high but we'd love to play and learn.
http://www.phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=11039
0 replies
Open
Game needs to start in 30 minutes or will be dropped!
http://www.phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=11017

We are all new and the pot is at 10 per person. Please join even if to quit we want to get a game in
1 reply
Open
TheClark (831 D)
22 May 09 UTC
Free Markets: Myth or Reality? I am open to suggestions!
For discussions sake. The recent thread started by Jamiet99uk inspired me to start a new discussion.
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TheClark (831 D)
22 May 09 UTC
I am of the opinion that truly free markets are fleeting phenomenon at best.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
22 May 09 UTC
Oh no.. there are no truly free markets. That's like saying there are frictionless tabletops.
sean (3490 D(B))
22 May 09 UTC
Myth (unless you mean Somalia, thats "free") The Europeans and Americans use this "free market" BS line on poor nations, what they really mean is you open up to us, deregulate your markets, relax your environmental law let our large companies come in and dig up your land for minerals, employ your people in sweatshops and hey ignore feeding your own people, grow coffee and chocolate instead to feed our appetites. This relationship contains NO reciprocity at all as rich nations subsidize their own domestic agricultural industries.
spyman (424 D(G))
22 May 09 UTC
What do you define as a free market? If you mean trade between countries without tariffs, then that certainly exists.
Jamiet99uk (808 D)
22 May 09 UTC
The capitalist notion of a free market in which competition brings about efficiency and therefore achieves the highest quality products for the lowest possible prices, is a myth.

Such 'free' and 'efficient' markets can only be sustained in the long term when governments intervene to prevent over-successful firms achieving monopoly positions.
Jamiet99uk (808 D)
22 May 09 UTC
@Spyman: What you are describing is the notion of 'free trade', but for 'free markets' to truly exists, there needs to be freedom within countries' domestic markets too.
TheClark (831 D)
22 May 09 UTC
To tell the truth, I am not sure exactly what I mean. Free markets are more a part of American political mythology than economic theory. I was essentially trolling for an argument from some of the conservatives or libertarians (or anarchists) out there.

@sean: Your Somalia analysis is an interesting point. I agree with your sarcasm!

The closest thing to it in economic theory is the price-taker model of competition. Which, by their comments so far, everyone understands can not exist, or last long, without a sponsor (government or quasi-government).

OMGNSO (415 D)
22 May 09 UTC
Free markets do exist, simply by definition: If a market isn't regulated much then it is free. However the result of a free market is exactly as shown, either you are a strong country and end up with hoime grown trusts or you're a weak country and are dominated by foreign trusts. That is why they don't work.
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
22 May 09 UTC
Believing in free markets is not equivalent to believing in laissez-faire. Stopping people from building up monopolies or cooperatives from setting prices is a vital part of a free market in my view, because it allows freedom to compete on an equal level, at least in terms of selling the goods (not in terms of investment and development).

It is not however satisfactory in a free market to have a central bank to choose "what will the interest rate be today". It is not part of a free market to have a government that bails out failing companies. That is why there is no free market.

OMGNSO is wrong as to the effect of a free market. Instead, what he says is the effect of unfree trade/markets. In a true free market there is no mechanism for whole countries to dominate whole other countries, because in a true free market with free trade, nationality doesn't actually mean anything for the market.
Jamiet99uk (808 D)
22 May 09 UTC
That's a point. If the US government really believed in free market economics, they would allow all your failing banks and car companies to collapse. That's the role of the market in a capitalist system - to weed out the inefficient and uncompetitive.
kestasjk (95 DMod(P))
22 May 09 UTC
I agree with most people here. Does anyone really think a market can exist without any moderation?
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
22 May 09 UTC
Other than protecting against theft and fraud, and also monopolies, I wouldn't moderate/regulate at all. With that policy, you would be accused at least of thinking a market can exist without regulation.
TheClark (831 D)
22 May 09 UTC
It seems that some amount of regulation is required to maintain an effective and efficient market, a market of price-taking producers. How much and in what ways are the question.

@Jamiet99uk: that's the problem - our past government did believe in free markets. It's just that their definition of a free market is in reality an unregulated market. Theft and fraud ensued.

We have allowed the creation of oligarchic banking system. Banks too big to fail dominating the system. We can't let the wealth vanish by allowing the bank to fail. We should have forced these too big to fail banks into a restructuring into smaller size units. Regulation should push the market against concentration, not facilitate concentration.
DrOct (219 D(B))
22 May 09 UTC
@TheClark - As I've said a few times (and I think this comes from Alan Greenspan) no company or bank is too big to fail, but some are too big to fail quickly. I agree that dismantling/restructuring would probably be a good idea for some companies and banks that we're propping up right now, but I also don't agree with people who argue we should have just let them collapse.
TheClark (831 D)
22 May 09 UTC
We can not have them collapse. We may see some restructuring before it is over, hopefully. But, only the public could consider splitting these institution into smaller units a good thing. Corporation logic seems to march ever forward to consolidation. This consolidation has been supported in the past by regulators - American Banks were too small in comparison to European banks.

Smaller institutions will move the market toward a price taker model. Extremely large banks can act like oligarchies and have undue influence on the price and nature of their products. A price taker market will move some power back to the customer.

Much of the Credit Card legislation just past would be completely unnecessary if the financial system was not concentrated in just a few hands. It will also be possible to exercise moral hazard when smaller institutions act stupid and reckless.
lulzworth (366 D)
22 May 09 UTC
The Ghostmaker is correct - the free market is something of an illusion, since "free" really advocates government regulation FOR competition (vs. socialism, which, I suppose, would be government regulation AGAINST competition).

There is also the issue of commodification of labour, land, and currency - which is questionable.

I'd recommend Karl Poylani's "The Great Transformation" for a rather detailed study of the subject. Specifically, the chapters "Societies vs. Economic Systems", "Antecedents and Consequences", and every chapter of Part II, Section II - "Self-Protection of Society".
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
22 May 09 UTC
Well, that's not really what I said. I am a free marketeer, but not laissez-faire. In terms of regulation, we are no where near a free market. There is not one industry that isn't heavily regulated. In the US, regulation came in after 2003, with Enron. The problem is that that just means that the just man pays for the crimes of a few.

The model we have now might be best described as a socialist-capitalist hybrid. But the setting of interest rates at 1% (merci Greenspan) encouraged massive borrowing, because when you consider inflation, you were being paid to borrow. Then the rates eventually have to go back up, and people go bust.

If there was no central bank, interest rates would normalise, when lots are saving, they would go down, indicating people were going to buy in the future (why else would you save) and so investment is a good idea. Low interest rates would also make investment easy. When people aren't saving but spending, so long-term investment is a bad idea, the rates would go up.

So, without a central bank setting interest rates, interest rates tell businesses what they should do. Businesses will always invest when interest rates are low, but when they are artificially low, that investment is a mistake.

The second regulatory mistake was to stop the last two recessions from happening. Since the early 1990s there has not been a recession. The reason is that governments continued growth by making credit easily available, and cheap. This means that the economy rides higher than it should do. In other words, it creates a bubble. What it also means is that companies that are inefficient, and should have gone bust in those two recessions that never happened, carried on, expanding. Now it is impossible to keep them afloat, and so we see massive bailouts/bankruptcies. Recession, when frequent and mild, helps make the economy stronger by evolutionary processes. When avoided, it turns a short, mild economic cycle into a long violent one. That is why this is the worst recession since the 1930s (Where, incidentally, the government did more harm than good-compare the recession of 1920 to the depression of the1930s. Because Wilson was unable to govern (he had sadly suffered from a series of strokes), and Harding willing to cut spending and encourage thrift, there was no government intervention like that of FDR and the economy was able to bounce back, contrary to Keynesian theory). Furthermore, this fuelling of the markets, particularly the housing market (as you will see from the third point), encouraged the absurd belief that house prices always went up. They had done for a long time, but purely because the government kept ownership artificially high.

The third point is that the government has encouraged banks, particularly in America, to lend to people who just cannot pay the mortgage back. The reason for this is to fulfil that ideal of home ownership. In particular, Freddie Mac and Fanny Mae were forced to engage in suicidal mortgages, because of their government history. This sort of policy by G W Bush resulted in home ownership going from 65% to 70%, but totally artificially. This fuelled a housing bubble because people were buying houses that they couldn't afford. Now they have defaulted on payments, the bubble has burst and we have come crashing down.


As you can see, all of this explanations are examples of regulation that forces business to act in a certain way, be it setting interest rates, or forcing it to survive and expand by avoiding what can only be described as healthy, mild and periodic recessions, and downright telling banks who to lend to.
TheClark (831 D)
22 May 09 UTC
@The Ghostmaker: The problem with regulation is that it creates winners and losers in the economy. This political vested interest (direct winners and losers) is most vocal for its interest and distorts the efforts of the regulatory process. You have cited some examples of where poor economic policy was implemented with dire consequences. While I wouldn't agree with all that you have said, your general point it taken.

In my opinion, the bulk of the economic regulatory mechanism in the United States for the last 29 years has been to mask the economic reality of the flattening global economy. You mentioned the use monetary policy to override the several recessions of the last twenty years. You should include the copious use of fiscal policy toward the same end. Without the ridiculous amount of stimulation created by unbelievable deficits and low interest rates the years from the 1980s on, America would have experience economic hardships rivaling the Great Depression . Maybe, that would have been better in the long run. We would have work out our new place in the global economy and been sounder and stronger for it.

I am afraid we have borrowed all the time that is possible to avoid this haunting reality.

It is difficult to compare recessions and depressions because their exact causes and situations are unique. The 1930 depression was the resulted from entirely different causes than the 1920 recession and the circumstances following each was radically different. I wouldn't take away a general lesson about government intervention by comparing the two.


TheClark (831 D)
22 May 09 UTC
Don't mind the grammatical errors!
Chrispminis (916 D)
23 May 09 UTC
Short answer, no. There is a more rigorous economic definition of a free market which in addition to no regulation includes no subsidization, no government monopoly, and indeed, no single monetary system. I can't think of any economy on any significant scale that would fit into this definition of a free market in the modern world.

My views are close to laissez-faire, but not exactly that because I do subscribe to more government presence than most classic libertarians might. Most basically, government serves to assert property rights. I would say that it should also take a role in preventing monopolies and encouraging competition, preside over services and products within the realm of public goods such as national defense. By definition, such a government would have a monopoly over the use of force, and very usually a monopoly over the monetary system, so it's not strictly a free market, though it could be a relatively unregulated one.

While there are libertarians who are for this theoretical free market to the point of contracting national defense and judicial systems to private companies, I think most people recognize that laissez-faire is more of an approximation to free market than an exact definition. The important part is that the market is unregulated and open to competition such that economic indicators are presents and shocks are quickly counteracted. The liberal side in me says that government regulation should come into play in industries where there are externalities, where fiscal profit does not equal social economic profit. I would be extremely cautious in determining whether such regulation is necessary because in general I think it's very much overdone, and that many externalities are only changed to ones that are equally existent but only less obvious to the general public. eg. The FDA is afraid of approving drugs that might harm the public since these deaths are much more apparent and obvious to the public than say, the deaths caused by the extra time taken by the FDA to approve the drug from people who required the drug. Those consequences are less obvious to the public, so the FDA will always err on the side of too much caution, at the expense of economic efficiency.

I mostly agree with TheGhostmaker, though I'm getting the impression he's more Keynesian than I am when it comes to macroeconomics.

To somewhat answer the original question, I would say that Hong Kong is the closest to a free market, and it's policy of positive non-interventionism is clearly designed with laissez-faire in mind. I would say that much of it's success and growth is owed to this economic stance.
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
23 May 09 UTC
TheClark, I was more saying that the non-intervention helped let the economy get going again in 1920, in contrast to 1930.

Chris, I certainly didn't mean to give that impression.
diplomat1824 (0 DX)
23 May 09 UTC
Free market WAS alive and well in America.....


(I don't feel a need to elaborate further then that)
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
23 May 09 UTC
When was said free market alive and well?
diplomat1824 (0 DX)
23 May 09 UTC
Okay, it appears as though I do need to elaborate.

The Democrats wiped out the Free market in America when they nationalized everything. Before that, like in the '80s, for example, the free market was alive and well.
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
23 May 09 UTC
So you mean Clinton, I guess. Okay. Bush Junior did worse than nothing to bring it back.
Sicarius (673 D)
23 May 09 UTC
I;m a pretty staunch anti-capitalist.

I think capitalism is inherently exploitative and hierarchal
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
23 May 09 UTC
Yes, it is. What's wrong with that?
kestasjk (95 DMod(P))
23 May 09 UTC
I wonder if it's true that 3rd world countries tend to have freer markets than 1st world countries. Countries like Brazil have pretty free markets, and you tend to see the worst extremes of wealth and poverty
Correlation doesn't mean causation though
diplomat1824 (0 DX)
23 May 09 UTC
"I think capitalism is inherently exploitative and hierarchal"
--Sicarius

Explain. I think capitalism is perfect and its only flaws occur when people get it wrong.
OMGNSO (415 D)
23 May 09 UTC
Capitalism gives everyone the ability to get it wrong. That is why Free markets fail: Because people want to misuse a free system.

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51 replies
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
23 May 09 UTC
Leagues: Game 2
All leagues should be starting game two if they haven't already.
9 replies
Open
New game new people
We just need one more to join us! Come on in ^_^
http://www.phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=11017
0 replies
Open
aoe3rules (949 D)
23 May 09 UTC
Grammarful Game
I started a related thread earlier but couldn't find 7 players.


The only rule to join would be that you must use proper grammar. It is also an intensive communication game. And it's for the fun of diploming, not for points, so the buy-in would be 5 (I don't care whether it's WTA or PPSC). The phases would be 72 hours. Reply if you're interested.
28 replies
Open
spyman (424 D(G))
22 May 09 UTC
New Game: Wag the Dog
http://www.phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=11005
All welcome. 36 hour turns. 20 points. PPPS.
2 replies
Open
Russia95 (100 D)
24 May 09 UTC
WW2 forign realtions
Join please
0 replies
Open
nhonerkamp (687 D)
23 May 09 UTC
Glitch in game. Need assistance from a moderator.
In the following game: http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=10783 Italy has two SC's but three units. There seems to be a unit in Spain but also a disbanded unit in Spain. Help please.
3 replies
Open
jodabomb24 (100 D)
24 May 09 UTC
Game
Uh...hi? I am a new player, just wanting to play a game. You'll probably beat me anyway, but I just want to play, so please join...
2 replies
Open
Hereward77 (930 D)
24 May 09 UTC
Excellent Turkey CD
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=10527

Turkey on 8 centres. Game is in stalemate which would mean any newcomer could be a deciding factor.
0 replies
Open
New Diplomacy map for new people
http://www.phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=11031

Come and learn with me
0 replies
Open
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