Its funny that the leader of the country that perpetrated one of the biggest genocides of the 20th century and that continues to fight a long term civil war with its ethnic minority can lecture any other country on human rights. And receives a heroes welcome for doing so.


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"Peres's defense was prompted by harsh criticism leveled at Israel not only by Erdogan, but also by the two other panelists, Arab League head Amr Moussa and UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon.

"You are killing people," Erdogan declared to Peres.

However, a finger-pointing Peres told Erdogan that he would have done the same if rockets had been hitting Istanbul.

"Do you understand the meaning of a situation where hundreds of rockets are falling a day on women and children who cannot sleep quietly, who need to sleep in shelters? What is the matter with you? You don't understand, and I am not prepared for lies."

Peres's comments were met by hearty applause, which apparently irritated the Turkish prime minister. "

it irritated him because of and i quote "I find it very sad that people applaud what you said. You killed people. And I think that it is very wrong".

Speaking in Turkish, Erdogan said, " I find it very sad that people applaud what you said. There have been many people killed. And I think that it is very wrong and it's not humanitarian."

Sounds like a half-decent guy don't you think?

I'm with Dingleberry Jones on this one: It seems hypocritical, to put it very politely, that a Turkish politician points fingers and, says, with indignation: "You killed people". The question is, who started this episode in this long drama? And no politian of any country can say with righteous indignation to another one that he killed people. I cannot think of any country on earth that has NEVER ever killed people in other countries, or their own, or both and Turkey is indeed very near the bottom of the league standings in this category.

I don't know about the current situation in Turkey, but it is pretty stupid in my book to say that no turkish PM or whatever can ever be indignated at another country's actions because of things that have happened over 20 years ago, under someone else's rule.

That being said, if there is a currently violent situation in Turkey itself, that probably would make him an hypocrit.

Yeah but what Israel had no regard for civilian life when it carried out its operations on Gaza. That's why you have 1300 Palestinians killed and only 13 Israeli's.

That's his point - Israel needlessly slaughtered people and apparently could care less about it.

Thousands of Kurds have been killed in Turkey (and Turkey has followed Kurds into Iraq to kill them there). Unlike the Armenian genocide which occurred years ago, this is currently happening. So having a Turkish premier berate another leader does indeed seem hypocritical.

"Yeah but what Israel had no regard for civilian life when it carried out its operations on Gaza. That's why you have 1300 Palestinians killed and only 13 Israeli's."

Thats not the issue. We can discuss that on another thread. That is obviously how Turkey views it (or at least publicly says they do). The issue is whether Turkey bringing it up is appropriate. Would it be appropriate for Hitler to tell Pol Pot he was violating civil rights?

There is no denying that at present the way in which Turkey has acted towards the Kurds is very similar to the way Israel has acted towards Palestinian resistance groups. As such, it is hypocritical for Erdogan to be indignant about it. I'm surprised the Israelis haven't brought the Kurds up yet...though I supposed that might be considered too finger-pointing for international relations.

The Armenian genocide ahappend almost one hundred years ago! Can countries not reform? Thats a dangerous precedent.

Turkey arrests Kurdish disidents. They don't carpet bomb their cities. There is a massive distinction.

"Do you understand the meaning of a situation where hundreds of rockets are falling a day on women and children who cannot sleep quietly, who need to sleep in shelters? What is the matter with you? You don't understand..."

The world understands, Peres, that YOUR nation broke the cease fire...

http://www.maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=33024
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jOFXL62zw0&feature=related
http://www.rys2sense.com/anti-neocons/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=16501
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KntmpoRXFX4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfFMZ7Y-s_c

So you speak for the world now, Darwyn? Did you win an election to garner that position, or was it self-appointed?

To sit here and say one side or the other is at fault is very narrow-minded. Both sides share the blame.

Centurian,
Really? Turkish military action doesn't result in civilians deaths, either in Turkey, or when they violate Iraqi sovereignty to bomb Kurdish villages in Iraq? Is your knowledge of that conflict so cursory?

Obivously it does, but they aren't comparable

"Did you win an election to garner that position, or was it self-appointed?"

Was that an attempt at sarcasm? lol

"To sit here and say one side or the other is at fault is very narrow-minded."

lol...check the links, trip. Mark Regev, the spokesman for the Prime Minister of Israel, ADMITTED that there were no Hamas rockets that justified this most recent slaughter of innocent women and children. To disregard this in an attempt to spread blame over years of injustices is just plain retarded.

You best do your research before you open your ignorant mouth.

Well, I respect the guy for standing up and leaving the debate in protest of the unfair time allotted, but I do sense a tint of hypocrisy in what he's saying.

"You best do your research before you open your ignorant mouth"

or use his ignorant fingers to type on his ignorant keyboard - in this case

not saying your ignorant trip - just correcting the mode of communication of Darwyn's accused ignorance.

But really didnt we have like a 500+ post thread on who was at fault in the Isreali-Palastinian conflict? And didn't it grow to 500+ posts with no one convincing the other side of their opinion?

We might as well start a NEW thread about who's assomistsest of the assomestisterists in diplomacy then nominate scientists and actors and mythylogical characters again!

Oh wait, someone did that too.

Charlie Brown or Linus?

Linus +1

Oh come on, you don't think I could sit here and type links to news about unprovoked suicide bomber attacks in Isreal?...or political leaders of Hamas and other organizations/nations calling for the destruction of Isreal?...or Isreal being on the receiving end of a broken deal? Get real.

I look at the big picture. If you don't think the uncountable amount of incidents between Isrealis and Palastinians in the past is relative to what is happening now, then you are as narrow minded as I presumed.

Instead of posting links and writing other people's words, try thinking for yourself. Look for solutions to problems intead of jumping up and down, pointing your finger.

As far as Turkey and the Armenian genocide. As long as the Turkish government officially denies their ugly genocidal chapter of their history, the book is not closed. Indeed it is considered a crime against the state in Turkey to even say that there was an Armenian genocide. This sort of policy is a stain on the coutry. Those who remain silent or in denial under that policy to some degree become collaborators in the original genocide.

trip, I never said that Hamas was never wrong (nor did I in the thread phil refers to)...the discussion between Erdogan and Peres was directly related to the most recent slaughter in Gaza.

As per Dingleberry's quote, Peres used the excuse that "hundreds of rockets are falling a day on women and children who cannot sleep quietly, who need to sleep in shelters?" as defense to Erdogan's comments of ""You are killing people,"

I've proven that in this particular instance, there had been a cease-fire and that Israel broke it...making Peres' statement a load of crap.

In my opinion (despite the apparent hypocrisy by Erdogan), the people of Turkey gave him a hero's welcome for being one of very few people to actually stand up to the Israeli's.

The world is growing tired of the "poor Israel" excuse for slaughtering innocent women and children and it was exemplified at Davos.

"I could sit here and type links to news about unprovoked suicide bomber attacks in Isreal?"

Unprovoked, eh? So illegal settlements, blockades, discrimination, killing women and children, destroying homes, destroying farms and using illegal weapons are all non-provoking behavior, eh? LOL...The above comment proves your ignorance of the subject. You are a typical Israeli apologist.

The rest of the interview:

"Interviewer: But if that was the case, there were no Hamas rockets during the ceasefire before November the fourth. There were no Hamas rockets for four months.

Mark Regev: And that's correct. And this crisis started when Hamas threw out the ceasefire, when they [interrupted].

Interviewer: Surely, this crisis started when Israel broke the ceasefire on the fourth of November.

Mark Regev: I disagree strongly, sir. Israel acted on the fourth of November because there was a tunnel being dug designed [interrupted].

Interviewer: There were no Israeli civilians being killed at that time.

Mark Regev: Israel was acting to prevent Israeli civilians being killed. Our operation was defensive, it was in response to aggression from Hamas. It was not just Israel that pointed the finger at them. It was the United Nations, it was Russia, it was Egypt, it was Jordan.

Interviewer: But the civilians of southern Israel are less safe now than before you started operations.

Mark Regev: The civilians of southern Israel fully support this operation and you know why, because they've been living under the threat of incoming Hamas rockets, not for days, not for weeks, but for months and for years. We're trying to create a new security environment in which they no longer have to live in constant fear of an incoming Hamas rocket."

"Indeed it is considered a crime against the state in Turkey to even say that there was an Armenian genocide."

Funny, it's a crime in Germany to say there WASN'T a Holocaust™

K, firstly...Israel was explicit in their first justification: that being Hamas rockets. Now it's tunnel digging. And tunnel digging demands that 1300 Palestinians die.

No mention of illegal settlements?

Denial of genocide enables future genocides... it is reasonable for Holocaust denial to be a crime.

"Who, after all, speaks to-day of the annihilation of the Armenians?" - Adolf Hitler, August 1939 (military meeting, prior to the invasion of Poland wherein he outlined a plan to slaughter Poles to create "living space" for Germany)

"Denial of genocide enables future genocides... it is reasonable for Holocaust denial to be a crime. "

You are joking, right?

Does saying that Elvis is still alive enable MORE people to say others are still alive?

Does believing in aliens, the loch ness monster or bigfoot enable MORE people to believe in them?

It's a thought crime, big brother. There is nothing reasonable about thought crimes.

That had to be the dumbest thing I've heard in a LONG time.

I apologize for my choice of words...I'm a little irritated today.

I realize what I'm about to say is a bit strange coming from a doctrinaire pacifist, but I'll say it anyway: I'm a bit baffled by the allegations that the Israelis are "slaughtering" women and children with "carpet bombing"....1300 dead and counting! I'm sorry, if a nation with the military power of Israel was "indiscriminately slaughtering" Palestinians the death toll would be in the tens, if not the hundreds, of thousands. With modern ordinance, a couple dozen firebombs in the right places could create a firestorm that would make Dresden look like child's play. The reality - as seen by an outside observer who abhors war - is that by historical standards Israel shows nearly heroic restraint in their wars with their neighbors.

no problem, Darwy - I like debate.

I isn't as if it was illegal to think or even privately debate it... Public denial is what is illegal. So - this is not a case of criminalizing thought at all.

Restriction of freedom of speech? Obviously it is by definition. The question is what forms of speech should be protected and what forms should not. Famously, shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theatre is not a protected form of free speech. Neither is threatening someone or plotting a crime. Calling a police man a name can get you arrested in most places simply as a measure to keep order - to support the thought that police deserve respect and our culture values that ideal highly. I'm not sure of the exact legal reasoning stated by the German government, but I imagine rather easily that it is under an idea that to deny the holocaust is a threat to maintaining civil society in Germany. This is probably much less of a threat as time passes... but there have been no shortage of neo-nazi sympathizers in Germany that could be perceived as a threat to the state and to maintaining a civil society.

...this can easily be contrast with the recent law passed in France where denial of the Armenian genocide is now a crime... there is no threat of Armenian hating Turks taking over the country or slaughtering Armenians in the streets... nor is there any French history to come to terms with regarding the issue - no case of national penance, so to speak. The French law is a political tool to prod Turkey with... it has nothing to do with maintaining order or a civil society. So, where I support the German law, I don't support the French one.