Trump believes Mexico will pay for a wall that the US stopped building because it wasn't working.

It must be nice to live in delusional Trumpland.

If you think that killing a human being is on par ethically with expecting people to stay in their country where they are legal citizens, instead of coming here illegally to be economic parasites... you have some rethinking to do.

I can't even imagine what passes for "rights" in that condemned slum of yours that is generously called a brain.

everyone has a right to believe what they want

@ Atheos: If you were a legal citizen of Syria right now, would you happily stay there, or would you become a parasite?

(Interesting that you attack the intelligence of others, and yet you don't have the comprehension to note that there could be a difference between a refugee and an economic migrant)

Fetal parasites are the worst.

anyone who thinks Mexicans coming here for economic reasons is on par with people fleeing Syria so they don't get beheaded, clitoral circumcisiion, enslaved... is a total jackass who doesn't deserve a response from me.

I just saw your second post. I won't delete the above, regardless. So... what makes you think I don't know the difference between humanitarian refugees, and economic migrants?

Jeff Kuta..... you're a evil evil man.

Hilarious as hell.

But still evil.

Speaking of parasites: http://www.theonion.com/article/single-unemployed-mother-leeching-government-51176

"If you think that killing a human being is on par ethically with expecting people to stay in their country where they are legal citizens, instead of coming here illegally to be economic parasites... you have some rethinking to do."

Remember that discussion about fascists from the other thread? Exhibit B

@ Atheos: "Anyone who thinks Mexicans coming here for economic reasons is on par with people fleeing Syria so they don't get beheaded..... is a total jackass."

That's correct. The former are not refugees, they are economic migrants. Since the OP specifically stated "refugees", and yet you immediately began moaning about Mexican economic migrants, it's clear you are a total jackass.

"Expecting people to stay in their country where they are legal citizens, instead of coming here illegally to be economic parasites."

Translation: I expect people to stay in their country where their life is at risk because I don't want to have any less money than the amount of money that I have, and I tbink this is not the same thing as being responsible for someone's death.

You're the parasite, scum

@Thucy,
Jamiet99uk was altogether more accurate, more clear, and more correct than you, but you STILL felt the obligation to post. just... why? don't answer, I don't want to puke again, but ask yourself...

How did I miss this pot of gold? What a valuable, worthwhile thread.

tis beautiful

Scum, you say? ##VOTE Atheos

##vote Atheos

##vote END capitalism

Genuine question - how much of a difference is there between a legal citizen, formerly a Mexican immigrant, or a Mexican immigrant with a visa who send large portions of their income back to their families and an undocumented immigrant doing the same?

Ok, if you want some clarity about why I posted - there is no moral distinction between economic migrants and refugees from war except that case of a war refugee is more urgent. But the economic refugees have just as strong a case to come to a more prosperous place to escape grinding poverty, which is its own form of violence. And anyway, it's no accident that the wars that the world allows to rage and cause so much strife are located in poor areas of the world. Global inequality and greed and heartlessness are a single issue. And people would build a wall are scum. If you were in their position? You would hope for a certain amount of welcome and condolence for your struggle. When something as uncontroversial as the Golden Rule became radical politics I don't know, but for now count me on the side of radical compassion. And to hell with pigs like Atheos who have traded their humanity for material comfort - truly they are worse off than even the refugees, but have yet to realize their is warfare in their own heart.

Am I correct in reading there being 3 different categories listed there, bo? It makes sense, but your grammar makes it a little tough to understand.

I'm grouping legal citizen and work visa together.

Off the top of my head...

The legal citizen presumably pays tax -> pays the state; pays into capitalism.

The illegal/undocumented citizen does not pay tax or pay nto capitalism and may be involved in a black economy that avoids the state, but also avoids and weakens the control of corporates.

Big capitalism dislikes undocumented immigrants/workers because they want to control workers; undocumented workers may produce/perpetuate black markets that aren't regulated/controlled and/or counterfeit/cheap goods/services that hurt the profits of big business.

The state dislikes undocumented immigrants/workers because they don't pay tax and can't be monitored or controlled, and may therefore evade other rules and jurisdictions, which could lead to crime.

The socially-conscious/compassionate may/should dislike 'undocumented' workers because these workers are highly likely to be abused by employers, low-paid, and will most likely not have safe access to healthcare, housing or education for themselves/their families.

Does that help in some way, bo? What do you think?

"If you think a fertilized egg is living but not millions of refugees, you've got some rethinking to do."

This is a very disingenuous position to take. The vast majority of people who believe abortion is wrong believe so because they truly believe that a fetus is a human, and abortion is murder. Doing anything in their power to stop murder... including and up to using the military, as some like Huckabee have said, is not something insane. For a lot of people it isn't an issue of "controlling women's bodies" either, but simply preventing murder. In their eyes, why should a woman be allowed to murder her baby?

Thinking of it in these terms is why I don't think the abortion debate is one that will ever really be solved. It's much better to push for better sex education and contraceptive access.

"The legal citizen presumably pays tax -> pays the state; pays into capitalism."

This is actually a misnomer though...

...because as well all (should) know, those at the top of the capitalist food chain, the rich, the powerful:
a) they often don't pay tax
b) they actively avoid paying tax
c) they hide wealth from the state
di) they don't pay "in" to capitalism, they just take "out" from the capitalist system
dii) they rely on the honest work of everyone else who is paying in to the system.

"Big capitalism dislikes undocumented immigrants/workers" Actually false. Undocumented immigrants are the cheapest of workers.

@Tr: For small enterprises, undocumented immigrants can be cheap and purposeful.

But for big capitalist enterprises, all workers are cheap: it's called wage labour. Or they just outsource -- so, either way, undocumented workers in home country are unhelpful.

Also, big capitalism wants healthy, stable workers to make and sell their goods -- undocumented illegals do not provide that.

By "small enterprise" do you mean the general company of any given size, especially ones that preclude the employment of menial labor that Americans despise as well as don't want to have to pay minimum wages? Because that is pretty much the only way to make that statement accurate.

To answer bo, the difference largely is based on the undocumented immigrant not having valid paperwork (being passports or visas). This can be a lack of paperwork entirely or else expired or violated visas. Because of this, the governments of either country can't really say why this person is in the country, whereas legal immigrants and citizens have known purposes for being in the country.