so your point is the Norwegians got it wrong?

Then contrast that with the frequency of gun-related crime and death in Norway and the US.

Both got it wrong. I'm anti-death penalty, but I'm pro-sanity. Breivik should've gotten a life sentence.

The Norwegians have evidently not got it wrong.

i remember that quite well. So very sad. wasn't that the worst act of violence in that country since WW2

21 years is the time frame sentenced but this can be extended, indefinitely if needed, on review.

@wjessop - Alright, that's good. The thought of him reentering society in 2032 is terrifying.

With that in mind, knowing that if he's still like that he'll stay in jail indefinitely, I think the Norwegians might have gotten it right. At least, they got it more right than we did.

Indeed. I'd be extremely surprised if any Norwegian court agreed for him to be released in 2032.

The statements from a number of the victim's families were really interesting...many said that they were happy with the Norwegian system, that he would remain alive and visible to show others what happens to people who commit these crimes, to tell child relatives of the victims that the person who took their loved ones away is being kept in punishment, not released from life and forgotten, but kept as a permament reminder, openly discussed and learned from, to not simply punish after a crime has been committed, but to understand and prevent future crimes of this nature from every happening.

Norway, as in all European countries except Belarus, has abolished the death penalty. Norway has also abolished life imprisonment. Since 2011, Norwegian society has maintained its principles. Breivik will continue to be confined until he renounces his violent ideology and is no longer a threat to society.

While the United States maintains the death penalty, Massachusetts has abolished the death penalty. Nevertheless, 12 residents of Massachusetts unanimously sentenced Tsarnaev to death.

Norway seems to have a good opinion on that. We should certainly adopt their view.

If Yanik, who falsely believes that my opinion is based on religion, is reading this, he should be reminded that Europe is the least likely place to be influenced by religion. There are certainly secular reasons for abolishing the death penalty, and that's why I agree with it.

What's your point? That the US and Norway do things differently?

Tsarnaev got a perfectly fair trial by an impartial jury of his peers. The American justice system is far from perfect but it's still a first world justice system. We can damned well sentence people to death and sleep well the very next night if we want to.

To be honest, I stand opposed to the death penalty in "normal" cases. A run-of-the-mill murderer/rapist should get LWOP, not death IMHO. The only criminals that warrant the death penalty are those who commit treason during wartime (or de facto wartime, as is the case now)

Tsarnaev was under-charged. They should have tacked on a treason charge. As convicted, his case does not warrant the death penalty. But morally/ethically/common-sensically, his case does indeed warrant the death penalty. If he were to escape custody, he would be an unacceptable national security risk.

In other words, save your faux outrage for Indonesia's recent executions of multiple drug traffickers. Or Saudi Arabia's executions of people for not following a certain interpretation of Islam. Or North Korea's executions of people just to send a message.

The argument that because it's worse somewhere else we should stop trying to improve or think about our own situation is weak and lazy.

The point is that I'm disgusted and angry that Tsarnaev was sentenced to death. The Tsarnaev brothers justified their murders on the presumption that U. S. citizens do not value human life – that U. S. citizens are indifferent to the thousands of Middle Eastern civilians killed by the U. S. military as 'collateral damage' since 2001. That 12 residents of a State of the Union which has abolished the death penalty unanimously deemed it appropriate to execute one of these brothers only serves to reaffirm the murderers' allegations that U. S. citizens are hypocrites with no respect for life. We should be embarrassed by the verdict and hope that the execution is never carried out.

@Gunfighter - What exactly do you define as treason and why is that worse than other crimes? I'm genuinely interested in an elaboration on that.

The flip side of the coin is that Norwegians should be proud of their justice system and political system.

A lot of people seem to interpret the meaning of the death penalty purely from their own point of view - i.e especially that it is a fear/hate based 'revenge'.

My suggestion is, that one can see the death penalty as this: We as an elected and appointed board of the government of the people have considered your case. We have easily the resources to keep you jailed for the rest of your life, and indeed could spend vast sums attempting to 'rehabilitate' your character. On due reflection, we have decided, together, that your crimes against others are so heinous, that you do not deserve any further life, and we don't want you to exist any longer. Good bye, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Not complicated really.

@fiedler - That doesn't change my opinion that the government (or a jury following the government's laws and punishments) doesn't have the right to decide a thing like that.

That just exposes the painful reality that the government decides who gets to live and the government is a poorly executed democracy, meaning that in theory, you could die because roughly 30% of the populace believes you should die.

The reality is even worse.

"The government is a poorly executed democracy"

Umm, if you are in the western part of the world, and 99% of this sites users are, then you currently enjoy the best government the world has ever seen.

Where you fricken kids get these incredibly cynical ideas that you're government is terrible I just don't know. I favour the theory that you just have NO FUCKEN CLUE how lucky your are.

Fred Dag wrote a song about it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYvMeT2GC14

^ thats my country :)

"The reality is even worse." - EMO much?

You don't think the gov has a right to decide on capital punishment? Yet you are happy for them to keep you safe with a vast death apparatus called the military.

All of civilisation is based on coercion. It just would not work without it. And coercion is a nice word for violence, including death. Which is why we have jails, death penalty, extra-judical assassination etc etc. I could go on but I sense you want me to stop :)

I was talking about the US government specifically.
I'm very satisfied with my government overall, but it tries to represent its people and its constitution actually matters, so that's not a fair comparison.

"Yet you are happy for them to keep you safe with a vast death apparatus called the military."

No.

"And coercion is a nice word for violence, including death."

No.

I love these guys:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zC3-gzYTU88

It was already noted in this thread that the "it's worse somewhere else" argument is pathetic and no excuse not to fight to improve our own country and our individual place in the world.

cry your tears for the baby killer JECE, not surprised at all.

Cowards, the lot of you tigger-happy souls. Keep on refusing to engage the arguments of us abolitionists.

You're proving Tsarnaev's point that there is a hypocritical reaction by the U. S. public to indiscriminate murder; this hypocrisy is reflected in the U. S. justice system. So weak are you to give into the delusion that U. S. lives matter more

you are the fucking coward you contrarian murderer loving fool. I am proving nothing other than someone who deliberately takes anothers life deliberately forfeits their own. You are weak and your contrived moral frameworks are pathetic.

Why is sentencing this asshole to death hypocritical. You stated they blamed the U.S. For not valuing lives , and they killed innocent people for their cause?

I think they got off easy, lethal injection. That's humane. They deserving to be publicly shot in the head. Very cost effective

see how easy that was? Look, I base ad hominems off of a made up moral code too!

"Cowards, the lot of you tigger-happy souls. Keep on refusing to engage the arguments of us abolitionists."

YOU DON'T MAKE ANY FUCKING ARGUMENTS

You: Killing him is barbaric mmmkay

How should I respond to that?