Google keeps touting their corporate policy of "Do no evil" while they gain control. Part of what I hate about their search function was finding out it's tailored so you don't get all results, but only what they want you to have. Restricting information, but in a way that you don't know that you are being manipulated.

Microsoft does the same thing, but most of us know that they are evil so we expect it. They make sure to promote their own products and make it hard to get better alternatives.

lol I've despised Google for **years**. This is the company that **years** ago said they own everything you do through them. There intention for the longest time has been to own everyone's data about everything, including all the personal documents you create utilizing their on-line tools, etc.

Yes, Google is evil as hell.

Also...they skew their "search rankings" based upon the (left leaning) politics of the company. Fuck google.

Microsoft has always been blatantly and publicly evil, so they're easy to hate.

Facebook has changed how things work for users (always evil) and have had lots of bad publicity on how they use and control information as a result.

Google seamlessly provides an easy-to-use service for free. And I'm sure they were good, up to some point, until they had real competition, had to deal with patent trolls, and the like. Now they're like everyone else, just with the fading halo still visible.

I've read an article about how their advertising arm openly helped someone they knew was advertising less than legal medications in the states. But it had no traction. So it's not just a matter of time until the collective press grabs onto the right story, it'll be more like a slowly sinking ship.

Not that I'm holding my breath; I think there worse things to lie awake at night worrying about.

Al Swearengen: By pointing readers to "plenty of information . . . elsewhere", I presume you don't want to elaborate, but could you at least bullet your main concerns?

krellin:
http://billmoyers.com/2013/12/04/dont-be-evil-google-funding-a-slew-of-right-wing-groups/

@krellin

So why do you use gmail then?

http://www.thesearchenginelist.com/

So which ones do you use? How often do you use them? and why?

(I've been thinking about moving back to dogpile for a while, this thread may just be the impetus needed to for me make the move)

So, I'm not saying that Google is always on the up and up, but I find it hard to be too critical of a company that offers high-quality services that you don't even need for free.

It's not really for free, abge. They get extraordinary power and intellectual wealth in return.

Yeah, of course. But most people value their money more than their information; I'm not sure how that's Google's fault.

But aren't you being asymmetric in your condemnation of big companies? Every "evil" big company works because people value X more than Y, and because the company is organized to exploit the fact that this preference is irrational -- right?

I use google.

I set up a side business that uses google Adwords and, I have to say, that without google I wouldn't have that business. I also ran trials with other online ad agencies like Yahoo, but the traffic from google was unbelievable whilst the others were. Trickle at best. The bang for my buck with google means I'm sticking with them.

I know that they target my search results and skew them based on previous searches I've made, but I really don't care that much. I know they use directional advertising based on my data, but again, I really don't care that much.

Search engines only exit because the provider gets something out of it. The benefit of search engines outways, to me, the loss of my data.

I am also aware that companies tailor their advertising around the TV programmes I watch and the films I see in the cinema. I'm quite happy to sit through some crap advert which could infect my mind as long as I get to see the latest films reasonably cheaply and sometime good TV for nothing.

I'm also aware that newspapers try and sway my political opinions. I don't buy them, but do read some online articles which are surrounded by adverts.

I think we should just recognise that companies want to make a buck from us, one way or another, google is no better or no worse than many others. Any search engine that you switch to is likely to be doing the same things to a greater or lesser extent.

What Maniac said. It's a company, what the hell did you expect? Also, what alternatives are you talking about? I'd google it, but apparently I would only find what google wants me to find, so...

@semck

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I haven't condemned *any* companies in this thread, so the only way in which my argument is asymmetric is I've only talked about one company.

More importantly, though, I do think that it's OK to have higher expectations of a company when you're actually buying a product. But, again, if I'm not being forced to use said product and what they're doing is stated clearly upgfront, I'm not sure why it's wrong for them to do it.

Abge,

My point was expressed generically, because I don't want to take sides in various controversies.

But let's take an explicit example. People on the left often decry McDonalds and similar employers, because they say that McDonalds only maanges to be so cheap by forcing externalities -- healthcare, childcare, etc. -- onto society. Thus, they say, people are actually wrong to consider McDonald's so cheap, and McDonald's is blameworthy for exploiting society; and this should be curtailed.

Now, whatever you think of this specific instance, most criticisms of a company takes this form (whether for environmental behavior, economic behavior, labor behavior, whatever). It's true I can't guarantee you're being asymmetric, because maybe you never criticize a company at all. But if you do, then probably you use this form, and you should use it for Google.

Now, it so happens that I am not *terribly* fond of the form, myself, and so, influenced by you, I will restate my initial criticism: Google costs far, far more than people realize, and they should stop using it immediately. You are colorably right that it is not "evil" to exploit this information asymmetry, but in any case, rational behavior on the part of the consumer would be to stop using it.

And yes, I use gmail. And yes, I plan to stop at some point.

Ugh, ok, I don't want to get into a debate about fast food workers, so let's see if we can stick to Google and other related companies.

"Google costs far, far more than people realize"

Agreed. But imho, this is the fault of ignorant people, not of a company that offers services and very clearly states the intangible costs of using them.

"stop using it immediately."

Why? If I know what I'm giving Google in exchange for their services, why does it matter?

"And yes, I use gmail. And yes, I plan to stop at some point."

So why don't you? It's a trivial change to make. I'm just curious about people you say things like this because it makes me think you think it's harder to do than it is.

"Agreed. But imho, this is the fault of ignorant people, not of a company that offers services and very clearly states the intangible costs of using them."

Oh please. Point me to the place where Google "very clearly states" the intangible costs of having a company that doesn't believe in privacy or intellectual property rights have access to all your data.

"Why? If I know what I'm giving Google in exchange for their services, why does it matter?"

Because the price is too high. If you disagree, of course, that's up to you, though I probably disagree with some of your assumptions.

"So why don't you? It's a trivial change to make. I'm just curious about people you say things like this because it makes me think you think it's harder to do than it is. "

Easy, yes, but hardly trivial. It would take a full afternoon, at least, to research and select a replacement, set it up, migrate all my stored emails, and ensure that I had notified all of the hundreds of people and sites that have my address. Moreover, my above concerns would be more precisely stated as the belief that Google's trajectory is fast taking it to the point where it is irrational to use it, not that it is so at this moment.

So, I think we're having a problem discussing this because, to my knowledge, no one has posted any specific examples of Google being "evil". Perhaps we're approaching this from different perspectives? I'm looking at Google as compared to other high-tech companies; are you as well?

"Point me to the place where Google "very clearly states" the intangible costs of having a company that doesn't believe in privacy or intellectual property rights have access to all your data."

Google's privacy policy is much clearer and pro-consumer than most similar internet companies.

By Privacy Policy, I mean ToS in general.

The people who bitch about awesome free services on the internet are the same ones who would be unwilling to pay for awesome paid services.
Do any of you people honestly believe they would pay $25 a month for all of the free stuff Google provides? Hell no you wouldnt.

It drives me crazy that people think companies are a charity and expected to give you everything for free. The reason Google is free is because of the things you all bitch about. Take that away and you also take away Google.

For me, I am happy to have access to Googles awesome services in exchange for them knowing I like video games, cat videos and lesbian porn. Then they can make their service even better and advertise that stuff to me instead of books, dog videos and elderly porn.

I constantly find it amazing how little value people of the new *net-gen* place upon their own privacy.

Personally I find it a bit creepy that an anonymous company knows what sort of porn I like to look at, let alone tailor my legitimate queries into a list of what it *thinks* I might like to look at.

@ kraner

Why do you find that creepy? In the good old fashioned pre-internet age your insurance broker would know what sort of insurance you were interested in and your newsagent would know what sort of magazines you liked. What exactly is odd about your porn broker (google) knowing what sort of porn you like?

Your bartender knew your favorite drink and your barber knew how you liked your hair and your barista at Starbucks knew your coffee if he or she was good. People have always done business this way. Just because it's eBusiness on the iHighway doesn't change that.

@abgemacht

Sir you are a really dear fellow but I fear you are remiss on one point.

We're not having trouble discussing the problem due to the fact that people don't specifically understand *how* Google is evil.

We're having trouble because this is the Internet. The Internet, for whatever reason, encourages people to voice opinions where otherwise they would understand that they mean to be silent.

I knew this would happen before I posted. If you re-read the last paragraph that I wrote, I correctly predicted that plenty of Google apologists would shuffle forward awkwardly and bumble into the post, like a Holocaust denier offering pictures from Auschwitz as *proof* that the tragedy never happened.

We're having problems that stem instead from trouble with reading comprehension, as well as a general individual-specific (and irreparable) general problem focusing.

There is no hope for the people who are having trouble focusing. They are constitutionally incapable of doing so. Their very presence re-enforces my premise even though comically their actual intention is to challenge the same.

By trying to organize them, you are only punishing yourself.

"Oh please. Point me to the place where Google "very clearly states" the intangible costs of having a company that doesn't believe in privacy or intellectual property rights have access to all your data."

See this is the type of ignorant view that is the main problem with the internet. People have this misguided delusion that they have privacy rights on the internet. That is not how or why the internet was deigned. The internet by nature is an information hub. Designed to propagate the exchange and transfer of information in an easy way. It literally has changed the world, some good changes, and some bad.

The problem is when people automatically start using a free service with the completely false expectation that it is designed to secure data. That is simply wrong, in fact the opposite is understood by security professionals. There is literally nothing online that is 100% secure. Any network, any site, any database can be compromised by someone with enough time and/or resources.

Despite this, people are willing to flock to free services, and enter their information insecurely on a system that they don't understand.

So if you want to blame anyone for using free online services such as Google that don't put a huge priority on user privacy you need to blame every single person using that free service.

Now some people will immediately start claiming that this information isn't available and that the average person doesn't have the means to understand this on their own. If you search Google for Internet Security one of the first results is a Wikipedia page that explains how internet security works, and then lists every type of malicious program that can compromise that security. If you search Google for Google privacy you get this page http://www.google.com/policies/privacy/.

They flat out TELL YOU that they are using and collecting your data. When you consider that Google has almost no legal obligation to secure your data, or to provide you with information regarding what they are doing (this is a failure of most countries lawmakers not understanding the internet) they are actually one of the more helpful free services. I personally use Google because I understand that almost every free service comes with a cost. At least with Google I know exactly what information they use and give out, and what information I am not comfortable with them having. For example I don't want them having my credit card information so I've never used my credit card on Google or amazon...or online for that matter.

My personal use isn't really the point though, as someone who's a Networking and Digital Forensics specialist, I can promise all of you that your data is not private. The entire premise of the internet is information sharing, and while some companies make extraordinary efforts protect users information (mainly banks), that is not the norm and can not and should not be expected.

Alright, at least I know I can safely ignore Al for the remainder of this discussion. That will save some time going forward.

"For example I don't want them having my credit card information so I've never used my credit card on Google or amazon...or online for that matter"

How do you buy stuff?

With cash and credit cards, presumably.