Actually, my question for Puddle regarding immigrating to Israel is why hasn't he done it already - besides the fact he's obviously a minor.

His own words seem to imply that he puts loyalty to Israel above all other loyalties, and while I can respect that choice, I fail to see why he doesn't put his money where his mouth is and go help build 'his' nation once he reaches 18. If memory serves Israel has many programs in place to encourage Jewish immigration...

Kestas,
"Don't think that because I disagree with calling Israels policy towards Palestinians a success that means I'm making some comment about the legitimacy of Israel."

I wasn't suggesting anything of the kind. I was responding to "no matter how you look at it morally it's clear that their way of dealing with the Palestinians has failed completely "

'No matter how you look at it'. I was providing you with a way to look at it that Israel's treatment of Palestinians was a success. I wasn't commenting on right and wrong, just that absolute you threw out there. Israel had (has?) a very good chance of being annihilated by their enemies (maybe not just the Palestinians, but their Arab neighbors, which include the Palestinians), so the fact that they didn't can certainly be seen as some form of success. China doesn't face that problem with Tibet. If Tibet were made independent, I think that would probably be the end of the story. If the West Bank were suddenly turned into a state, I don't think that would bring peace, do you?

"If being fired at by rockets regularly is the end result of a successful policy I don't want to see an unsuccessful one "

Compared to what alternative? Unfortunately, yes, if Israel has 'x' dead a year due to terrorist attacks, that IS considered a success.

And Puddle, dumb question for you - what percent of the Israeli army do you think uses AK47s? (I'm surprised no one asked this earlier).

@DJ - I found the statement so moronic as to not be worthy of comment - but playing devil's advocate, he wasn't claiming that he was going to join the IDF - he claimed he was going to be one of those random yahoos in a 'settlement militia'. And I'm going to keep my opinion on THAT group to myself.

Except the fact that they're "yahoos", you're not keeping that to yourself :P

You raise a fair point, Xapi, that was hardly a neutral descriptor.

Well anyone want to discuss the 1975 UN resolution? 3397?

Really Puddle? You want to focus on one resolution from resolution from 35 years ago as your basis for what's happening today? And its 3379 you dumbfuck.

(Besides the fact that is was revoked in the early 90s)

Puddle, how old are you? Seriously, I just want to be able to respond to you properly, and the age and level of your education makes a big difference.

well first of all dingleberry, I don't think its invalid to discuss that resolution, so thank you for the correction. It was over 30 years ago yes, but really that doesnt take it out of the realm of pertinent actions.

However it would appear this experiment is at an end. There isn't really much point in continuing this. Much of what I've said was my actual views, but some was just pure fanaticism put in to see the effect, the militia statement being one of them. Given that I've been unable to justify some of my views to you people and to my self they are being abandoned by me and will be replaced by something else, something closer the truth. Thank you all for the discussion, I CAN admit when I'm wrong. I'd appreciate it if none of you held this discussion against me in future talks, but I'm sure I've irreparable@D damaged my image with some of you.

@Dingleberry, I've said it before but I'm 17 and in high school, however my historical education goes very much beyond high school in its content.

Well before we let this fade, any closing statements? 3379?

Puddle,
Let me give you some friendly advice then. If you want to discuss a heavy issue like this in the future, you need to do a better job. I don't think you helped your cause at all with this thread. Part of me wonders if you are actually an anti-Israeli troll.

1) Try to avoid facts like 'me and my friends all agree....'
2) Be careful quoting Wikipedia as fact
3) Avoid absolutes (or near absolutes) 'nearly every Jew everywhere calls Israeli "us"'
4) Avoid 'did you know that...' You come off sounding pompous and put your audience on the defensive immediately because you imply they are stupid. In your case, I kept waiting for the next statement to be 'this one time, at band camp...'
5) Stay on topic. Bringing up anti-semitism as your final point and saying 'don't tell me its dead'. It had nothing to do with the topic and no one had said it was dead in the first place.
6) Avoid hyperbole -'Jews are as much in danger today as before. ' Israelis are in danger as much today... Jews (such as you in Florida or me in NJ) are not in near as much danger as, say, my eastern European ancestors who suffered through pogroms and the Holocaust.
7) Don't make up stats "well okay not all, but a large percentage (Probably something like 65-75) "

@DJ re: #4 - I'd say it's less of a 'sounding pompus' issue than a fact that the obvious rebuttal is "no, I did not know that. Cite your source, please"