Many don't, it's true, but many do, such as Joseph Stiglitz. Often free trade IS fair trade. Sometimes, though, free trade is not fair trade. It all depends. And ultimately, there is no such thing as free trade until all trade is free. As long as the west is hypocritical about it and refuses to fully free up trade while demanding other liberalizations, it will be hard to say whether it is a net good or bad thing, free trade, that is.

I could go on. The point is, fair trade is a legitimate thing. Fair trade activists as well as free trade proponents both should be able to get behind

I would agree that it's disingenuous to paint the free trade-fair trade battle as West vs. developing countries because despite the claims of some in academia I don't think at all that Western governments have accepted neoliberalism as a standard of governing. Many governments of the developed countries still institute protectionism. I know one infamous example of this trend is American sugar quotas, but there are countless others.

the only thing disingenious about this all is the excuse by many to selectively give charity.

Socrates said "there are two criteria for charity, one is generosity, the other is wisdom". The fact is americans (because I am one, contrary to what people keep implying) is that we are the fattest laziest country on earth. Nobody here really needs much more, its time for the rest of the world to become "local". Stop caring about ben the meth addict and start caring about real people with problems that werent self manufactured. People need to stop enabling others and start having a tougher love policy for people who did unintelligent things like have 30 kids, and then ask for a handout. Stop making excuses for losers please, local, or wherever, they could be up yer ass for all I care, if they dont deserve aid, they dont deserve aid period.

LAZIEST? Very few stats you put up will back taht up BB, as a country we work more hours per person than any western nations. That is not me bragging, because I think its shit, but I am pretty sure its a fact, or very close to the top.

BB, for you to suggest every person, which it seems you are trying to imply, isa 'meth addict' which, as we all know, is very much a 'white drug' (over 90% of all cases now are whites), andone that has hit veryhard in Appalachia itself (trust me, it makes crack look like peppermint sticks)

However, people losing homes because of the economy tanking, I would be hard pressed to call any of them in that camp ground meth heads. Those people have a 'look ' to them, and a 'smell'..lol

BB, The world is not local. Where I come from, you help your neighbors. It is not something even discussed, it is simply part of the culture.

" I don't think at all that Western governments have accepted neoliberalism as a standard of governing." Well, they do when it benefits them, hence the hypocrisy. But that is another discussion.

I would like to take this opportunity to emphasize that I think we should do our best to help all people according to their need, and that there are people who have need everywhere. There are more per capita in Africa than here, that's for damn sure, but there are still some here.

Many Americans are shamefully parochial and stingy, but many are also open and generous. In fact, America is one of the most generous countries on earth, per capita. Not that it's surprising given how rich we are, but still. Having someone tell you your generous doesn't mean you can become Scrooge though.

With that said, can I get an admission from at least one of my detractors that there is no good reason this AGOA textile provision should not be extended? Because that's what this thread is about lol.

You guys are getting pretty polarized. Please take a moment to acknowledge that Americans have a unique position of privilege in the world and are morally obliged to more than just care about Americans. Conversely, please acknowledge that many Americans are deserving of help and are people too.

My God. Is no one in this world a universalist anymore?

That seems to be a global trait. interesting....

Thucy, not many Americans can help,. our wealth distribution is somewhat lopsided, but I also have a policy of not giving to a charity, as I know the money does not get to the place inteded intact.

I help homeless here, in my community, where 100% of my effort and money has a direct effect on people who are in need.

I do not think the millions of homeless Americans feel so 'lucky'

Sigh. Now we're just going in circles man. If you would like a response to your sentiments, please go back and re-read my posts so far.

We are the world!

Though, I didn't address your 'policy' before.

It is true that much of money spent by charity is wasted. However, can you honestly claim it *all* is?

Would you honestly want to live in a world where there are no charities? You can't truly believe that charities shouldn't exist. Beyond that, there are endless ways to help beyond donation, as I'm sure you're aware, both locally and as far away as east Africa.

Africa has been cursed by the twin plagues of foreigners out to exploit them and foreigners determined to help them. Both manage to rob Africans of the chance to determine their own fate. Let them choose their leaders, let them sell their resources, let them choose their morales, let them make their mistakes. Let them live and let them die on their own terms.

They are human, and they are responsible for their lives. To claim otherwise is to deny them their humanity.

I once watched an interview from a german magazine (Der Spiegel I think) and they wre interviewing someone from some African nation, and somewhere in the interview, the Reporter asked "You must be glad for so much Western Aid".

The man, who was obviously well educated and intelligent, looked the reporter in the eyes and said "no, your aid is destroying our people. Your free food puts our farmers out of work, your free clothing puts our factories out of work, everything free you give us may make you feel good, but in the long run, it hurts us. Once your aid stops, we will suffer for it, not you.".

he was 100% correct. This was a while ago I saw this interview, but I never forgot it.

Thucy, It is waht I am comfortable with, helping here. It does not mater where I put my money, if I am helping people who need it.

<sigh...> So don't care. it's not because I'm heartless or racist or anything of the matter. it more that Africa is just the armpit of the world that can't get it's shit together, with dumbass warlords and murderers everywhere and neighboring nations that don't give a shit and...aw hell, the drug cartels are slaughtering people just south of the US border and nobody gives a shit about that, either. And Obama is on a bit of a rampage slaughtering people with drones in Pakaistan and such...and nobody gives a shit about that. So...Africa? Please....pointless. You try to send aide, it gets stolen. You can't send in troops to pacify the murders or the liberals go apeshit. You try to bring in investment and technology...never works...it's a cultural problem...and ignorance and stupidity problem. I just don't care about Africa, because they don't care about themselves....

Octavious, it's a triple plague. There is also those people who are completely indifferent.

I do not want to live in a world where people do not involve themselves in affairs overseas, and everyone just keeps to themselves. That is neither effective, nor is it the future of our species. Interaction and dialogue are the only things that will get us out of this century alive.

That world is also called "prehistory"

Also, PS, claiming that Africa's problems stem from problems in their culture is Grade-A racist drivel.

Listen to me when I say this, because it is with 100% sincerity:

If you actually believe that, you are a piece of shit. Seriously. A piece of fucking shit. I hope you are just trolling me. I really, really, really, do.

Calling African culture inferior in some way is the most offensive thing that people still have that nerve to say out loud in the west today. Cut it out.

Are you really suggesting that culture, even culture instilled by the colonizing experience plays no role in some places? Certain African natons, just like certain European nations largely tolerate corruption. I have heard this from a man who spent his life helping build local businesses in Africa. It isn't true everywhere in Africa, perhaps even most places but saying culture plays no role in difficulties in Africa and that that anyone who suggests that it does it racist is a bit much. Bottom line is cultural differences can cause trouble adapting to an international economy. It doesn't mean culture is "inferior" it means that it is currently different and having trouble adjusting to an international system imposed upon it.

@ Thucy

There's a lot to be said for prehistory. No global warming, no threat of nuclear war, no reality television... Bliss! I'd have no hope of survival, of course, but there are people out there who would consider that a plus.

Seriously though, is Africa so pathetic in your eyes that they are doomed unless you stand up for them? Are African businessmen so inept that without special favours they will surely fail? Are African politicians so blind that they see deals with America as their only option?

Not at all.

Africa can, and does, look after itself. Parts of Africa have made painful mistakes, its true, and yet many more parts have flurished. What it needs from us is breathing space to shape its destiny in the modern world, not constant meddling from people who know best.

Then let them shape themselves. Stop poking our damn noses in their affairs. When we interfere constantly, it is like a Parent to a child. Leave them alone. They will figure out THEIR way.

Thucy, stop with the 'racist' crap That damn thing is getting REALLY old, not just here, but everywhere.

There is plenty of racist things going on right here in America, against all races, so please, go Champion those causes also.

The race card is getting REALLLY old, because it is used WAY too much

"There's a lot to be said for prehistory. No global warming, no threat of nuclear war, no reality television... Bliss!"

Haha you must not have studied it much then. If you have, then I'd say you've lost your mind.

Most people were orphaned before they were 10. People were raised by the community by necessity, and nearly everyone, men, women, and children, died a violent death. 20 was the average lifespan, and age 30 was considered very old indeed.

Not to mention bottomless ignorance that I can only imagined frustrated countless curious humans of the past. Their minds were the same, but they had access to so little information, it was as if they were adrift in a sea of darkness. They didn't know where they came from or what they were doing.

@Santa, of course culture affects reality, if that's what you're saying. But saying that a group's culture is responsible for the negatives or positives of its existence, is, as I said, racist claptrap.

Stressedlines, I don't call people racist at the drop of a hat. You may be thinking of brainbomb. Only krellin have I called racist, and anyone who agrees with his post, I suppose.

Speaking of shit that's getting really old is westerners with internet access who think that poor people should be left to their own devices. What the fuck is this, 1700? I take it back, they even knew you should help the poor in 30 AD.

"For if thou wilt be perfect, go sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and come, follow me."

The cry of "paternalism" has long been a convenient veil for a lack of sympathy.

Let me put it this way. If my home became as troubled as Africa, and Africa became as rich as America, you can sure as hell bet that I would not only hope for help from those best positioned to give it, but I would almost expect it, because it is only human to help those in need.

And then 50 years later that "help" is portrayed as just another manifestation of paternalism.

I would like to honestly ask you what you believe US policy toward Africa should be then. Because it sounds to me like you're saying any action taken with an aim toward improving their situation is unwarranted interference.

The AGOA does nothing to benefit African economies. It's a US law made for US businesse. If it expires, so much the better for Africa.

It is not surprising that Thucy would back a law which says that African countries need to produce textiles with *American raw materials* in order to get this bogus 'duty free' status.

Wow, i can't believe people are still talking about africa as if it's a single place, like idaho...

Also, meth addicts can be blamed for doing a stupid thing, but that doesn't mean you should create a world where doing that thing seems like it is worthwhile... You have to take any decision made in the context of it's environment (culture in Different parts of Africa and culture of American meth addicts/pre-addicts)

You can't waste energy forcing someone to do something they don't want, eventually someone will figure a way to avoid your rule; you might aswell assume they will make their own choice (legalize drugs) and disincentivize (ie:make other options appear better, while educating on the actual effects of drugs, positive with negative)

Poor homeless people tend to have mental health issues and low life expectancy. Drug addiction is just one of the associated problems... But do you really think anyone chooses to live on our developed, rich, successful streets???

Well the AGOA affects almost all sub-Saharan countries, so it's useful shorthand. Anyway, Africa is doing quite well comparatively speaking. Its economies are nearly universally in the midst of a boom. Capital investment has skyrocketed. Countries like Ethiopia are becoming livestock production leaders. The working-age populations are increasing, which increases productivity, as does the increasing levels of urbanization.

The biggest problem for Africa is climate change. It already has an agricultural sector hampered by climate, and increased volatility is going to make that worse. If African governments can manage to establish effective support regimes for their Agricultural producers which can provide aid to farmers when weather conditions are bad, there is great hope for the future.

Putin I'm not going to let you bait me. I'm sorry.