Hey, I don't hate taxes or government.

That is one of those things that can sound so good, and yet is it really true? Before large companies existed and before there were taxes, what was life like for the common person? I'm not a history buff so don't know exactly what time period we're talking about, but I'm guessing the word "peasant" or "serf" might be an accurate description. Do you really describe that lifestyle as perfectly good?

To clarify, my response was to fiedler, not YJ.

To correct, Fasces, they supposedly hate that people don't PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE of taxes....so thus they ask people to CHEAT ON TAXES.

Proof positive, AGAIN, the Liberal are just raging HYPOCRITES.

No surprises here. Noting to see. Move along....move along...

@Alderian....Maybe you SHOULD pick up a history book before you make a further fool of yourself. The pre-US colonies and the US have not been known for their "serfs"....yes, I know, the libs will start to cry "slavery" blah blah blah....wholly different than serfs. Not saying BETTER...just saying "different"...

The general notion is that the colonies, allowed to grow on their own under capitalist ideas, grew exponentially in power such that, in a relatively SHORT time in history, were able to gain enough power to throw off the bonds of a monarchy, and eventually come to have enough power to essentially become the dominant worrd power, ON TOP OF civilizations that have existed for ( in China's case) thousands (?) of years.

I'll take capitalism....

@ Alderian - well, the problems they had were based more on a lack of technology & communication, not a lack of taxation or large corporate bodies that are essentially above the law or any governance in the common interest. Its true that taxation and government are arguably helpful, but well, that's arguable.... :)

The germans have few corporations and prefer the medium sized 'family' business model, and they do quite nicely.

An example I always remember, is the fur trappers of remote russia. A century or two ago they had no government, and lived their lives making a good income. The russian government saw this and imposed heavy taxes upon them. In exchange they provided NO services whatsoever to the hard workers they were taxing. SO essentially, often government is just a big blood sucking parasite, operating entirely in its own interest.

Discuss.

Germans don't have large corporations? So...Daimler? Mercedes? These are small family owned operations? BASF? BOSCH? Deutsche Bank? Blah blah blah....

Ridiculous statement, unsupported by facts. In fact, it is just as easy to say that most jobs in the US are small to medium sized businesses...but that doesn't mean we can survive without large corporations.

Absurd...

I said they had FEW corporations. Relative to USA for example.

Just embarissing yourself. MORON.

fiedler, not to be pedantic, but can you provide a definition for "few" and "relative?" If krellin is being a moron, then you should be able to provide facts or at least definitions that are irrefutable, thus shutting krellin up.

Oh yes, the pre-corporate world was perfect.

I mean sure everyone had to work 12-hours a day in the fields just to eat and had no luxury goods, electricity or anything.

Oh wait, sorry, even in our agrarian days we still had to pay taxes.

Finally we have arrived at the neolithic era. The life expectancy may be 30, if your lucky, more women dying of childbirth then anything else, you spend every waking moment either fucking your neighbor or looking for food. Sure we don't have phones, computers or even electricity, and not even houses, no central heating and hell, only some of us no how to make a fire, but this sure beats the hell out of paying taxes to your government and getting a good paying job that can feed a family from a corporation.

I fucking hate the socialists I know who can't grasp simple economic concepts and hate on corporations despite owning an smartphones, brand clothes, go to fast food restaurants to eat etc.

What makes it worse is when they site the soviet union as a utopian state. A majority of today's youth is in for a shocking awakening when they take over the country.

Not only did past generations fuck us over with the social security ponzi scheme, but they support an economic system that has failed everywhere it was tried and will discourage businesses from investing and encourage the rich to move elsewhere.

The 'moron' was in reference to krellin misquoting me. This was probably deliberate and that's quite sad.

No I do not want to spend my time researching stats to prove a point to krellin.

"fucking your neighbour or looking for food"
- dude, that sounds fantastic.

@fiedler: You can't site the lack of technology in the pre-corporate world as a reason for it being shitty when the sole reason that technology is here is because big corporations invested in it.

and about Germany:
A. Lange & Söhne
Adidas
Allianz
Altana
Aldi
Arburg
Arcor
Armedangels
Athena Wissenschaftsmarketing
atsec
Audi
Alfo
BASF
Bauhaus
Bayer
C. Bechstein Pianofortefabrik
Beck's Brewery
Behringer
Bavaria Film Studios
Bechtle
BEO GmbH
Bertelsmann
BMG
Random House
RTL Group (majority ownership)
Bitburger Brewery
Boehringer Ingelheim
Birkenstock
Beiersdorf
Labello
NIVEA
Bericap
Beyerdynamic
Biesterfeld
Bilfinger Berger
Bosch
Blaupunkt
BMW
Hubert Burda Media
Carl-Zeiss-Stiftung
Carl Zeiss AG
Schott AG
Celesio
Circus Krone
Coelan
Commerzbank
Concert Software and Business Services
Continental
Daimler AG
Mercedes-Benz
Dba
Degussa
Delton
Deutsche Bahn
Deutsche Bank
Deutsche Börse
Deutsche Post
DHL
Deutsche Telekom
T-Mobile
T-Home
T-Systems
Deutsche Vermögensberatung
Deutz AG
Diezel
Dräger
Dresdner Bank
Dresdner Kleinwort
Dresdner Porzellan
Douglas Holding
DOVO Solingen
Djshop
E-Plus, owned by KPN
EADS (part German)
E.ON
EnBW
Epcos
EnOcean
edding AG
ebmpapst
Facton
Filmstudio Babelsberg
Fischerwerke
Fissler
Fraport
Freenet.de
Fresenius
Fresenius Medical Care
Festo
Ford of Europe
Ford-Werke
Gardena AG
GEA Group
Gebrüder Thonet
Gerling
Gerolsteiner Brunnen
Getrag
GfK AG
GPC Biotech
Grundig
Grunenthal Gmbh
Hama GmbH & Co KG
Hannover Re
Hapag-Lloyd
Haribo
Hauni Maschinenbau AG
Heckler & Koch
Heidelberger Druckmaschinen
Heidelberg Cement
Hella (company)
Henckels
Henkel
Heraeus
Hochtief
Howaldtswerke
Hugo Boss
HypoVereinsbank
HBS-Henkenjohann
Infineon Technologies
InnoTek
Intershop
J. Schmalz GmbH
Jenoptik
Jil Sander
JOMO GmbH & Co. KG
Kali+Salz
Karstadt Quelle
Kärcher
Kärheim
Keimfarben
Kellerandwest partners inc
KfW
Klein and Hummel
Klöckner
Koenig & Bauer
Körber
Krauss-Maffei
Krones
KTB mechatronics
KUKA
Lamy
Leica Camera
Leidolf
Leifheit
Lidl
Lidl & Schwarz
The Liebherr Group
Lindauer DORNIER GmbH
Linde AG
Linhof
LTU International
Lufthansa
Austrian Airlines
Swiss International Air Lines
Loewe
Löwenbräu
MAN
MAGIX
Meindl
Meinl Percussion
Meinl-Weston
Meissen porcelain
Mennekes Elektrotechnik
Merck
METRO
Meyer Werft
Miele
Montblanc
Munich Re (Münchener Rück)
Mercedes-Benz
Nero AG
Neveling.net
Oetker-Gruppe
Opel
Orenstein and Koppel GmbH
Otto GmbH
Porsche
Preussag
PUMA
Putzmeister
Radeberger
Rawie
Recaro
REHOLZ
Reply S.p.A.
REWE Group
Rohde & Schwarz
Rosenthal AG
Roth Industries
RRI Rhein Ruhr International GmbH
RUF Automobile
RWE
Salzgitter AG
SAP
Schaller Guitarenparts
Schering
Schwarz Pharma
SCHWING Stetter
Sebamed
Seca
SEMIDI
Sennheiser
Severin
SGL Carbon
Siemens
Siempelkamp
SkySails
Soehnle
Software AG
SolarWorld
Solimpeks
Sortimo
Spaten Bräu
Axel Springer AG
Stabilo
Staedtler
Eberhard Faber
Steinway & Sons
Stiefel Labs
Stinnes AG
Storck
STRATO Medien
Südzucker
Talkline
Tchibo
Telefunken
Tente International
TETRA
ThyssenKrupp
TUI AG
TÜV Rheinland
Ultrasone
Underberg
United Internet
Vaude
Vector Informatik
Villeroy & Boch
Volkswagen Group
Volkswagen
Audi
NSU Motorenwerke AG
Wacker Chemie
Walther
Warsteiner Brewery
Wayss & Freytag
Weber Technologies Biocyte
Weckerle
Wella
Wintershall
Wolff & Müller
Wusthof Dreizack
Würth
Wilkhahn (Wilkening+Hahne GmbH+Co.KG)
Web Design
Züblin
ZF Friedrichshafen AG

Former companies

AEG, now fractioned into parts of Electrolux, General Electric, Alcatel, AdTranz, Thomson SA
AGFA, now part of the Belgian Agfa-Gevaert
Aral AG, now part of BP
Aventis (now a part of Sanofi-Aventis)
Blohm + Voss
Bremer Vulkan
Büssing AG
Dornier GmbH
Entwicklungsring Nord
Focke-Wulf
Focke Achgelis
Hamburger Flugzeugbau
Heinkel
Hoechst
Philipp Holzmann
IG Farben
Junkers
Magirus
Mannesmann, now partly part of Vodafone, ThyssenKrupp, Siemens, Salzgitter AG, Valorex
SABA
Messerschmitt
Singer AG
Vereinigte Flugtechnische Werke
Voith
Weserflug


So your right, Germany has very few large corporations.

""fucking your neighbour or looking for food"
- dude, that sounds fantastic. "
Maybe I should have said raping rather then fucking...

Also good luck sleeping on a rock, relying on animal skins to stay warm in the winter, etc. etc.

oh you got me good fasces. lol

Fasces, you never, never, never, /never/ give a troll information. You always use the "let me google that for you" link. Always.

@dubmdell: I was considering that, but then when I saw how long the list was, I though it would be more epic to post it.

@krellin, he said before corporations AND taxes, so I was going back further than the U.S. colonies. Were the U.S. colonies ever not taxed?

As a side note, am I really making a fool of myself for not having a strong memory of historical events when I prefaced my comment stating such? Everyone has there strong and weak suits, and history has always been a weakness of mine. Does that really make me a fool? I would think someone a fool if they professed capabilities that they did not have.

Further -- the "few" corporations in Germany are also in a land mass approximately the size of Montana...

@Fielder -- I didn't misquote you. I didn't quote you are all, or else I would have used those QUOTE marks...But I did dump on your ridiculous ideas that you refuse to support with any sort of reasonable EASILY found proof...

Sad...

@Alderain -- you think there were no taxes before corporations??? lol LAUGHABLE. Taxes do not have anything to do with cororations. Taxes come from GOVERNMENT. So I'm not even sure what the implied connection is, other than in the ORIGINAL post, the implication is that you hate corporations THAT PAY TAXES...but you don't want to pay taxes yourself...so WHO SHOULD be paying taxes to fund your social welfare programs???

OP: I assume they favour co-ops and informal forms of voluntary cooperation.

As a socialist, I would like to make it clear that I love paying taxes. I think the US Supreme Court Justice, Oliver W. Holmes, put it very nicely when he said:

"I like paying taxes. With them I buy civilization."

As a Conservative I pay my taxes an understand them as a necessary evil. The problem isn't taxes....the problem is government spending

@Krellin: you misread ald post, he said his post was going way back, way before the US colonies because the colonies always had taxes

Fasces - Nothing you've said here actually effectively argues against the occupy movement. Yes, it's true that corporations have improved our quality of life, it's possible to grant that point, and still support the occupy movement, or to be anti-capitalist in other ways. It's also possible to fight against the capitalist system without living an agrarian or precapitalist lifestyle. You're creating a false dichotomy here. You're saying "either you're a capitalist or you want to return to a hunter-gatherer society". Well I'm neither. Having done some good things does not make capitalism immune to criticism. And grating that point and benefiting from those things does not make one indebted to capitalism either.

I understood the Occupy movement to be against the "dirty" competition of big money, such as when they run smaller businesses out of town just to eliminate the mom and pop competition, cap the work week at 39.5 hours to not pay benefits, are unforgiving when family emergencies (or near-death illnesses) prevent you from coming in for two weeks, etc. Maybe I was misinformed.

@ dubmbell - It is against things like this, but those things don't exist in a vacuum. They're part of a wider capitalist culture that is exploitative and coercive. You can't be opposed to that, without being opposed to wider corporate culture. If you do abolish practices like that, but don't attempt to change the framework in which corporations operate on a more fundamental level, they'll just find new loopholes, and new ways to accomplish the same old bullshit.

"You can't be opposed to that, without being opposed to wider corporate culture."

Yeah you can. Companies exist to make money, nothing else. You can make laws to keep them from asking too much of their employees, but trying to fundamentally change how businesses run is impossible.

And why even try? I understand regulation to keep people from being harmed, but building Jerusalem is silly no matter what field it's tried in. Mind your own damn business, pun intended.

@mafia: but we still need Capitalism.

We have enough food to Feed most of the world not because farmers are kind, but because farmers are greedy.

We have smartphones, tablets, computers etc. that are greatly superior to those of the ones that were around 2 years ago.

The reality is every day our lives are getting better and better, the number of people who are starving is getting lower, the number of people with acess to internet is getting better.

But this is happening because of capitalism. That person on wall street who makes a billion dollars is only making that kind of mine because he helped fund (through investing) companies that successfully provided a product to consumers and made billions of dollars.

I'm not hell bent on consumption, I don't own a tablet, I last upgraded my cell phone not when a new version came out, but when my old one broke, same thing with my computer.

I buy clothes whenever I outgrow them, not when they go out of style.

So I'm not part of the consumer culture where you have to get the newest best thing on the market, and yet some of the people in the occupy wall street movement are.

Thats called being a hypocrite, you can't being against the capitalist culture except for when it benefits you. You either have to support it, along with the good and the bad, or be against it.

You can be in favour of a mixed market economy, which has regulations, you can favour a progressive tax system, but you can't claim to hate corporations and then continue to buy consumer products that you don't need and are only being provided because its profitable to do so.

@krellin, while we probably share many opinions, it is becoming clear to me that you struggle, knowingly or not, with reading comprehension. I'm on the same side of the argument that you are on, but you are reacting to me as if I wasn't and seem to think I think the craziest things. This misunderstanding has now happened repeatedly and I have to assume happens not just between you and I but you and many others.

I urge you to take more time in your reading. Hopefully your haste to reply is the real problem and not just a true inability to understand. It is difficult to have an intelligent discussion when one individual involved isn't understanding what others are saying. Taking the time to understand will dramatically improve the discourse.

Alderian....I confess that the comments earlier today were made at work....during which time I can only scan....and can only reply in "alt-tab" moments...

That being said....pretty much EVERYTHING I say in these forums is USUALLY commented on by people that have not read what I wrote, and reply to ASSUMPTIONS of my beliefs, as opposed to what I hav actually said.


But...here a clue for you, Alderian....MOST people will NEVER read what y ou have written. MOST PEOPLE vote for politicians they have never heard speak, or for whom they have never read anything....MOST OF LIFE is based upon suppositions, not fact. THAT is reality.

THAT is why *I* *USE* *EMPHASIS*....Which pisses people off....but...guesss what ? THEY NOTICE EMPASIS....

Sooooo....EMPHASIZE your MAJOR POINTS.

So krellin, every time you misread my points its because you're at work?

NO....sometimes, Fasces, it is because I am lazy. TODAY it was because I am at work.

JUST LIKE I GET feedback 90% of the time from jackasses that have never truly read what I wrote.

Dude....grow up....it's an internet Troll forum....MOST of what you write is not read, because MOST people are too lazy to read anything more than the last 1 or 2 posts.

Once you grasp that....you'll have a better handle on things.

At least *I* am honest enough to admit my mistake.

We are getting together in these forum posts as a group of people interested in a particular topic to discuss that topic. If we don't pay attention to what each person says and instead just make assumption after assumption, then what is the point?

I suppose that is a large reason I've typically avoided these types of threads in the past and while I'll probably do so again in the future.

As they say on Shark Tank, I'm Out.

Don't worry, krellin is just projecting his approach on others. He doesn't actually try to understand nor to be understood. I tried to explain him he does himself no good by not separating his angry "politics thread" persona from the cool "non-politics thread" one but his response was nil. He just likes his debates hot & spicy :)

@Alderian: I actually read all the posts... I'm sure quite a few did as well...

@ulytau....Have you even read all of my posts....or is this just your general assumption about me. I'm not "projecting my approach"....see, I DO read the bullshit you write....I am actually responding to the nonsense replies I get from all the know-it-alls on here that dismiss everything I say without reading it because they know I am conservative, and therefore assume they know my thoughts. But i confess...I do like my debates hot and spicy...i.e. HONEST, instead of a bunch of pricks pretending and being "politiclaly correct" instead of being honest .

"but we still need Capitalism." - But you've just asserted this! And everything you use as proof for it happens to have been a consequence of capitalism, but we don't know that ONLY capitalism could have produced those conditions. And you also don't know that the conditions in which we live are the best possible conditions.

"the number of people who are starving is getting lower" - Really? Really? I'm gonna need a citation on that one. Maybe if you limit your view to the developed world that's true, but worldwide? I'm skeptical.

I've seen this argument before, it's basically the argument from lack of imagination. Capitalism is best because umm... I can't think of anything else, and you know what? In the unlikely event that capitalism is the very best of all social structures, there's still TONS of room for improvement, and critiquing existing problems is still a necessary exercise.