The dissent is not just within Greece:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bypLwI5AQvY

Yeah it should be more than interesting. Waiting for our friend hellalt to wake up and see this.

indeed, might find it interesting too;)

I was told by an investment banker the other week (yes, they still exist) that these countries are known in the business by the acronym PIGS.

All 4 are neutral countries in Diplomacy.

End of democracy??? If there ever was democracy it has long since been replaced by plutocracy.

My house-mate has been talking about this. He's a regular reader the Socialist Workers website and he keeps telling me about how the workers of Greece are suffering to maintain the lavish lifestyle of international capitalism. I don't quite follow the reasoning. I think that a few countries are in for a wake up call. It could happen in the USA before too long. I think a lot of countries have been living beyond their means for a while.
I am not a socialist though, but I have been reading quite a bit of the economist Peter Schiff lately (of course he is hardcore free-market kind of guy) he's all doom and gloom about the state of affairs in America.

This conversation is an exaggeration by itself. I know Americans think Greece is the cradle of terrorism and/or revolution but the truth is that the biggest riots in Greece happened in December 2008 not due to socialist workers' demands but because a policeman brutally killed a young boy. Of course the expansion of the riots was such that implied economical reasons and not just an outrage against the violent act.

The basic problem in Greece is that whether you are 20 or 30 more or less you are over-educated and unemployed or under-payed due to the corrupted politicians.

Riots and spreading violence also in Portugal?

Where?

Yeah almost all of the protests have been peaceful, and I haven't heard of widespread rioting outside of Greece. Also the problem has nothing to do with globalization and everything to do with Greece's fiscal irresponsibility.

"This conversation is an exaggeration by itself. I know Americans think Greece is the cradle of terrorism and/or revolution "

We do?!

I know, right? I think the last thought I had about Greece one way or another was thinking that Souda(sp?) Bay looked kind of nice from the view through the periscope cam. :P

If I think of terrorism, I think of religious crazies of all kinds, and if I think of revolution..... I think of Robespierre.

You see, the reason North Americans think that Greece is the centre of revolutionary thought in the EU, is because Greece doesn't have a history of revolting.

You see, you'd never suspect them... so they are in fact the ideal suspects!

Again, I don't think North Americans think that.

@DingleberryJones - I know but hellalt does.

Thats because he's Greek.

and paranoid

and does not like Greek women.

@hellalt - Not all Americans, I assure you. In fact, Italy and Greece are the two countries the wife and I want to visit for our 25th anniversary in 2014. I want to see the Greek Isles and Athens and she wants to see Vatican City and Rome. Yet neither of us have a desire to go to any countries on the southern shore of the Med (despite having friends in Egypt) for fear of our safety. Turkey is about as far south as we'd go.

greece has wonderful islands

i second dingleberry, i dont think of greece that way.

Draug, I think based on your post, Greece or Italy is as far south as you'll go, even if you go to Turkey. Unless my map is crooked.

Your map is upside down... you see Greece and Italy are actually the north most European/Med countries.

(^_^)

I guess I always think of Turkey as connecting with Syria, there bye it being more Southern versus Greece and Italy which connect with the rest of Europe, but I see on a map that technically Crete and Cyprus are more south than Turkey. So I'll clarify: I'll visit the islands and the northern shore of the Med, but not the southern shore. Better?

Souds like a good vacation.

no

Ok,. here's the deal:

*Greece is spending more than they take in, due to benefits far more lavish than are available in the rest of Europe, and a tax collection system that is a joke.

* Greece needs to refinance their debt.

* People who Greece wants to purchase bonds are looking at the budget numbers, worrying they're going to get screwed in the end, and demanding high interest rates. Which pushes Greece closer to defaulting on their debt.

* Greece is part of the Euro zone, and is asking for help. Countries that don't offer the same level of benes are having their workers ask why the hell they should work till 65 to pay taxes that are going to a Greek who retires at 54.

* Greece has to bring it's budget under control, by cutting spending and enforcing the tax laws. If they do not, and they default, they will pretty much be forever prevented from borrowing again - so, that's another way to bring your budget under control, when you literally cannot pay for anything but what you have cash on hand for.

* Greeks who get lavish benes don't want to see them cut. Rich greeks who skip out on taxes don't want to pay them. Chaos ensues

I saw the writing on the wall with the housing bubble (although I'd be lying if I forecast the chaos that resulted), and I don't see a pretty ending here.

Take a peek here for a similar view
http://www.wallstwtf.com/2010/02/greek-treasury-will-give-away-one-giant.html

There has been articles in the last 5 or so Economist issues explaining the above.

@stratagos - Countries can't refinance their debt. The amounts are just too large, and a country like Greece would never get a better interest rate anyways. Basically your assessment on Greek tax collection and their deficit is fairly accurate. They have already began to implement laws giving more strict punishment to tax evaders.

As for the deficit, they have reduced it from roughly 15% of GDP to 12% of GDP, but progress is slow, and they are in trouble of defaulting on their debt within the next 5 years. In order to avoid defaulting the IMF will have to step in, and if they don't they will risk a backlash from the EU (who will then have to shoulder Greece's problems) which they can't afford.

At the end of the day, Greece will be "bailed out" one way or another, and it sure looks tempting for Portugal, Italy and Spain to jump right on that train... because hey, apparently failure is rewarded these days!

@DingleberryJones - you read the economist? Nice! That is by far my favourite subscription! Also I think that most of those articles can be viewed online, but they are missing a few of the graphs.

Yeah, I read it. Parts of it I enjoy, parts of it seem like Karl Marx wrote it :)

Usually the Economist is pretty capitalist...