Drugs are ok if you are willing to deal with the consequences. In the medical sense they can be quite useful as well. Geo, I think you don't get that a lot of people who use drugs don't give a crap about their health. I'm sure you knew that.

@Geofarm,

In earlier posts I used the word healthy incorrectly, by referring
only to the physical effects and not the mental. Okay?

But for the remaining, I have said that I have someone close
to me with an addiction. He used everything and he has been
for a month a clinic.

I was with him on winter sport and he explained all the things and
the things he got to know from the doctors from the clinic and all
the other persons with addictions. He visits regularly AA meetings
and NA (Narcotics anonymous) meetings.

And I can say your idea about drugs is just wrong. Addiction is the
main problem.

In other words, if coke wasn't addicted, it wasn't forbidden.

And yes you can die in many ways, also from drugs.
But the addicts that get medical care in the clinic are
mostly people with an heavy alcohol addiction (cold
turkey may lead to heart failure) or tranquilizers. For
the other drugs the effects are mental (going cold
turkey with heroine is terrible, leading to paranoia
attacks, seeing spiders on the wall etc.)

Heroine and cocaine do not have any direct physical
effect. The person close to me, using everything especially
coke, is better in sports than me. But I outrun any heavy
smoker.

You give just incorrect information. My opinion is that if someone
wants information, he should get the information right even if it
is about drugs. You scare people off, with the wrong things. This
has the danger that the person seeking for information may see once
that the information is incorrect and may conclude that drugs are
not dangerous after all. But that is the wrong picture.

Lucas

@Lucas - you facts about Heroin are incorrect. It is very much a physically addictive drug. There is a difference between mental and physical dependence. Physical dependence means that the body will protest when use of the substance is stopped (withdrawal symptoms). Compared to other substances this easily happens with heroin. It doesn't mean that somebody is addicted after using heroin only once, but if the use becomes more frequent, physical dependence easily grows because of the development of tolerance. Tolerance means that the body easily gets used to the heroin and that the body requires steadily larger doses to achieve the same effects.

When the heroin has lost its effect the withdrawal symptoms show up: the user feels sick, sweaty and cold, has goose bumps, a running nose, stomach ache, and pain in arms and legs. Possible symptoms are vomiting and diarrhea. These symptoms disappear as soon as heroin is used again. That is how the user easily ends up in a vicious circle.

Yes, that is indeed true, okay, point taken.

But, what I wanted to say is that after cold turkey you don't have any
permanent damage to your body. Except when as consequence of
heroine use, you started to neglect yourself (which is very likely,
because you don't feel need to take care of yourself).

This is different with alcohol and cigarettes which may do permanent
damage. Alcohol does damage to your liver and may shrink your
brains. Cigarettes pollutes your lungs and may take 20 years to
become clear.

After two weeks of cold turkey (which is really terrible) of heroine
all physical effects are in principle away.

Lucas

"You're right, but every other bit of my argument is right!" - Ikruijsw for the last 5 posts.

Being that addiction is the last health problem to arise from drug use, it doesn't matter how devastating you think it is. Every other problem with drugs that I mentioned earlier can, and will, show themselves before addiction is set in.

By the way, the things you are calling, are mental things. The users feels sick,
but is not really. The same for feeling pain. Sweaty and a running nose are
real physical effects, but they can be due to wrongly controlled brains that are
confused due to lack of the substance.

But I admit, I am not sure about this.

Lucas

But the damage done by the carcingens aren't what makes tobacco phisically addictive. It's the shakes caused by the lack of nicotine that qualifies tobacco as physically addictive. You argument should be that it isn't directly pgysically harmful to the body long term, but even that is bunk because your brain is part of your body and if it affects the way the brain talks to the nervous system do to the drug, it can cause your heart to stop or "explode" from racing too fast for too long.

My text was a quote from a medical site. It is physically addictive. Plain and simple. Cocaine, however, is only psychologically addictive causing one to become severely depressed when they come down and crave a new high as soon as they can get it.

@Geofarm
Cocaine, crack and heroine are addictive after one time use.

Lucas

I'll use your example of Heroin:
ALL of these health issues have NOTHING to do with addiction, can occur before addiction, and produce long lasting or permanent damage much worse than the addiction:

- fatal overdose
- spontaneous abortion
- infectious diseases, including HIV/AIDS and hepatitis.
- collapsed veins
- infection of the heart lining and valves
- abscesses
- liver or kidney disease
- pulmonary complications, including various types of pneumonia
- toxic contaminants or additives that can clog the blood vessels leading to the lungs, liver, kidneys, or brain, causing permanent damage to vital organs.
- enormous variations of birth defects

This doesn't even mention all the accidents that can happen whilst you are under the influence of the drug.

@Geofarm
First of all, I am not making these replies to "be right". I just want to explain an addiction from the close experience I have. Because, I think this is important.

Your list is bullshit:
- Fatal overdose
You can indeed do that, but why should you? After one shot
you feel okay. You can also die from drinker too much water.
I never read about a first time overdose kill.

- spontaneous abortion.
Bullshit. Heroine comparable with morphine, it probably
will stop birth not initiate it.

- infectious diseases, including HIV/AIDS and hepatitis.
Those diseases come from the needles, not from the drugs.
Remind, you also need to buy this from criminals which is
also a risk.

- collapsed veins
Bullshit, that is with alcohol.

- infection of the heart lining and valves.
Bullshit, that is with alcohol

- abscesses
No relation with heroin.

- liver of kidney disease.
Is related with alcohol, not with heroine.

- pulmonary complications, including various types of pneumonia
Is due to neglect of yourself, long after you have been addicted.

- toxic contaminants or additives that can clog the blood vessels leading to the lungs, liver, kidneys, or brain, causing permanent damage to vital organs.
Yes, with alcohol, no with heroine. Can occur after neglect of yourself.

- enormous variations of birth defects
I doubt that, heroine is rather natural substance in the body.
However, the child will be born addicted and needs to
get rid of its addiction after birth. I know someone that
was born that way (he is healthy).

But most of these things (except for overdoses), take much
longer then the addiction. You can be addicted after one
time use of heroine and you are certainly addicted after
one week of use.

Lucas

Are you fucking mental?

1. No one intends to overdose when they do unless suicide is their intent, but IT STILL HAPPENS.
2. Abortion does not just mean "to induce birth," it can also mean death to a fetus, which is VERY possible with heroin.
3. Did you just say that infectious disease isn't the drugs fault, it's the needle's? Let me know when sticking empty syringes becomes the new teen pastime.
4-8. Are you a doctor or a drugie that just got lucky? Heroin fucks every single one of your organs up, especially your vascular system. Sit here and call bullshit all you want, I've seen it, in a hospital, with my own two eyes.
9. The toxins are in the heroin after it's been cut up. Drug dealers don't care what they put into the mix as long as it's hard to detect.
10. DID YOU SERIOUSLY JUST TRY TO TELL ME THAT HEROIN HAS NO INFLUENCE ON BIRTH DEFECTS?

"- liver of kidney disease.
Is related with alcohol, not with heroine."

The use of needles alone is enough to multiply the transfer of various viruses.
Like hepatitis c is easily transferred from one heroin user to another.
hepatitis c leads to liver breakdown.

It doesn't even have to be from sharing a needle. Yes, the drug itself is relatively easy on the liver, but everything added to it and the bacteria administered into the blood stream with the dose is brutal to the liver.

Once again, people who use heroin probably don't care if they die, as long as they get the high their after...

they're*

How about, it's not the drug's fault, it's the law's fault? Dirty needles and dealer-adulterated drugs aren't a problem with legal drugs.

Otto, this has nothing to do with the decision to abuse heroin, only the health issues associated with doing so, even once.

I read this thread but I can't find anything relevant to LSD?
Anyone tried it?
Do they still produce it?

There was a good thread on here about one of our users trying LSD for the first time, although I can't remember who it was or how it turned out. Sparked a hell of a debate though.

@Geofarm
"Are you fucking mental?".

That doesn't help the discussion. I am sincere and I speak from experience from someone close to me. I prefer you leave those remarks at home.

"DID YOU SERIOUSLY JUST TRY TO TELL ME THAT HEROIN HAS NO INFLUENCE ON BIRTH DEFECTS?"

Yes, indeed, if you are a male.

I will try to make my point clear for the last time and I hope you will try to understand me for just once.

The point I want to make, starting from my first post, is that the arguments you give are the wrong arguments for not using those drugs. Of course, you can die at the first use.

But given the case of a young boy that wants to try something. He might see it as a kind of holiday. Something he wants to do once or maybe a twice a year.

Then he look at the risks you give.

Starting with the pregnancy. Unless he is fucking mental he will not see
that as a risk. A woman will also not see that as a risk when she is not
pregnant.

Then about the needles. He is not yet in a downward spiral, so he just
thinks I ensure I have clean needles. If he doesn't, then he is totally
stupid and of course there are people that are totally stupid. With
clean needles all this infection risks are not there.

About the overdoses. If he can think little he will do this together with
someone he can trust and used it before. In that case you don't get
an overdose. As said before, there are people that are totally stupid.

The purity of the drugs is indeed a risk and remains a risk. The toxins
in the drugs are indeed very bad for your health, point taken.

But if he uses a drug of good quality and he did the
things above, he will survive it and stay in good health.
His organs will not be damaged after use a few times.
Any medical doctor will confirm that the DIRECT physical
effects of heroine are less than alcohol. Heroine is a
substance that interferes with the signaling of the brain
and does not affect the other cells. Those are all indirect
effects.

So, back to the case, he counts the risk. Indeed there are
some risks, but life is a risk. If you take the airplane it may
crash. Yes, it happens. A steamboat may sink on the first
trip (Titanic).

So, your arguments are not convincing. At least not for me
(I am not pregnant) and certainly not for the person close to
me, I mentioned before. Young people aren't easily scared
off by danger, they see it as a challenge.

But, it won't stop after one use. He will notice that it was just
great. All the bad things didn't happen. He didn't get a spontaneous
abortion and his body is still good shape and all his organs are
just working.

After a few months he starts to use it again, since it wasn't bad
after all. And again, all these bad things don't happen. Then he
starts to use it again after a few weeks. The interval shortens.
And soon he is addicted.

After 20 years, he had periods that he was clean for a few years,
got fired several times after using again, he has been in a clinic,
visiting NA meetings. And he wishes he just didn't do it the first
time. That he could wipe out this from his life. That is the true face
of drugs and that is the reason why should not try it, not even once.

Of course, you have those incidents, I won't deny that.

Lucas

So what you're saying is as long as you're:
- male,
- have perfectly sterilised equipment,
- the drug in it's purest form with no addititive toxins,
- have someone experienced and sober watching over you,
- have no underlying preconditioned health problems that will ignite with the drug use,

then yes, be my guest and say that addiction is the worst that person has to look forward to. But one dose isn't enough to become physically addicted to the drug.

And seeing as over half the population is not male, and that we don't live in a perfect world with guardian angels looking out for us, you're still fucking mental.

You say that addiction to heroin is the worst part of its abuse. But you are wrong. The health problems associated from using, even once, hold much harsher consequences. And even if you survive enough uses to become addicted, the health risks are always around the corner.

Your friend got lucky, but it seems he never realised that. The addiction itself is fairly harmless, but it is hard to beat. But guess what the risk of the addiction is? The person using again and dying, or having a stroke, or their fluid-filled lungs collapsing, or heart disease, or any of the other problems I've mentioned.