http://www.worldleadersthegame.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1158

I would like anyone's opinion as to what to do, I'm stumped

Could you explain the fatal flaw in the position and what your two options would do to resolve it?

It's an interesting variant, with excellent potential, but it will need some balancing. I love the colonies in Algiers and Nicosia. Switzerland should be very interesting.

I'm concerned with Norway-Sweden because they seem vastly underpowered. I could only see their success if the player in charge of them was vastly diplomatically superior than it's surrounding players. It has no guaranteed builds, England can force Iceland, Germany can force Denmark. England can quite possibly put a lot of strain on Oslo early on, and a tiny concerted effort between Russia and Germany could do the same on Stockholm.

I really think Spain should start out with Portugal... or perhaps you have another way of balancing it. France's army in Marseilles can wreak psychological havoc on Spain, forcing it into a gambling position for a build. It has to 50-50 gamble whether or not to move to WMed and Aragon to bounce France's double threat and possibly give up Portugal, or forego the bounce for a possible fall 50-50 on it's home centers.

Also, Austria-Hungary doesn't have too many initial expansion points, all of which can be taken quicker by other nations, and early attacks on other nations look quite easy to rebuff.

Overall, I think the oceans will get too crowded and the game will be limited by naval stalemates. Out of the thirty odd territories added, only two were ocean territories? I estimated the net change in coastal territories to around 12, but many of them were in relatively useless coast in terms of facilitating fleet movement, such as Georgia, Jauntland, Lapland, Palestine, Nicosia, Ireland, and Ulster. MAO looks really easy to hold from the north, and SoG really easy to hold from the south.

Also is Sicily a territory that can be occupied? Because it's named on the map, but not listed in your territories added list.

Of course, my criticisms are purely theory-crafting, and perhaps in practice some of them are quite negligible.

Flaws noticed and not noticed
Austria: Austria can grab Alb for his build its mostly a lock for him. Because the League would rahter move out to the IOS or the Aeg. Also the Leauge doesn't wnta to anger Austria because it can use ALL Three units againist him at Bde.
Turkey: Smyrna. Lepento. Fall 1901.
S01 F Nic-Eas, F Nap-Ios, A Ven-Apu
More later.

I think I have my final version! Just go to the link. v 1.2
Also it will be on DP Spring Retreats issue.

Cool. Looks good. Just a few questions and observations.

Great balancing for Spain and Sweden. The addition of the Scotland Sea makes Iceland a much better prospect for Sweden. I like the addition of the Gulf of Finland as well, but I'm skeptical about some of the other sea territories. What was your reasoning for the Bay of Biscay? It just makes MAO that much easier to hold from the North and I can't see another use for it. Why the GoT and why the splitting of the Black Sea?

Can a fleet in Seville move to Portugal? I'm assuming SoG can't move to Portugal and MAO can't move to Seville and vice versa. Does that tiny sliver of Aragon attach it to the GoL and make it coastal? Does that mean that a fleet in Val cannot move to Marseilles?
CiS also shields Palestine from the EMed?
Can Naples still move to the IoS?
Can Sicily be occupied?
Can you convoy to Sardinia and Sicily (if it's a territory)?
Does Slovenia have access to the Adriatic Sea?
Does Clyde have access to the NAO?

Ok, some observations. These could be intentional, but I'll point them out anyway. The new land territories in Russia make StP impossible to hold from the North but fantastically easy to hold from the south. I suppose Finland now fulfills that purpose for Northern stalemates, but if it's Russia that's holding StP, you'll still need significantly more units to hold a northern line, and I'm not sure you can if they keep pumping out units on the south coast.

The addition of the Bay of Biscay makes the MAO that much easier to hold from the North. A similar strength stalemate could be held at SoG from the south if you cut access to Morocco from WMed and instead allowed access from SoG to Algiers. As it is SoG has only four adjacent territories while WMed has eight.

Rome's early fleet access to the GoL will make things very interesting. Also noticed that Tunis isn't called Tunisia. Is that intentional?

The Bay of Biscay and the GoT are dangerously isolated, having only four adjacent territories and don't serve as major passage points like Ska or seem to be protective like Hel. The GoT is redeeming in it's increased access to the Adr, but what is the reasoning behind Biscay? It would be more useful if it gave access to more territories that the MAO could not access, say if Aragon were expanded to have a North coast.

Consider toying with the boundary of East and West Black Sea. Moving the bottom part to the left to block out the West from Ankara would make the East more important and useful.

Consider toying with the western boundary of the SoG. Moving the top part to the right will make a northern hold of MAO slightly harder, and will have interesting consequences of Spain's early game. Moving it to the left will also make MAO and SoG harder to hold on both sides, but I wouldn't recommend this in conjunction with a movement right of the bottom part of the eastern SoG border, as France will be able to put a dangerous amount of pressure on Portugal in Fall 1901.

The Balkan League starts out with two home centres adjacent to others. One was enough to cause a lot of friction between Austria and Italy, and I noticed you eliminated that. I can't imagine the stress of having two. Perhaps Transylvania might be expanded to buffer Budapest from Belgrade?

Phew. There you go.

AAAHHH! ok hold on long response...

v 1.3 clears up most of the problems. (3 versions in one day? I dread tomarrow!)
-Bay of Biscay was used for that reason. illogical? perhaps
-Gulf of Taronto is used to strengthern Italy even more.
-The splitting of the Black makes Russia and Turkey talk even more than before. No longer can they count on a bounce.
-Sei can go to Portugal
-Val and aragons issues fixed in v 1.3 -
-Tunis? Damn...
-Bay of Biscay gone. GAH!!!! v 1.4!!!!
-Considering both
-Transylvania Hm...

Haha, there's no huge rush. Take your time, you don't have to release every small change.

Still haven't answered my questions regarding Sardinia and Sicily.

Can armies be built at Nicosia? =D

I also noticed that Turkey's navy might be stunted. Damascus is far back and will always have to compete with any builds at Nicosia. Constantinople is in a better position for fleet building since it has access to the Aegean, but it's adjacent position to Sofia might make it difficult for Turkey to keep it open for builds.

If you split the Black Sea for extra Turkey-Russia confusion, then I suppose you shouldn't move the border... but Russia is in a much better position to defend Sev than Turkey is to defend Ankara if they pick different sides. Moving the border left would make Ankara more secure but eliminate some of the initial chaos you might have wanted.

Nicosia can still wreak some early 50-50 chaos on Turkey by moving to CiS. Also, the Leagues unchallenged early access to the Aegean makes Constantinople vulnerable... I would consider adding another fleet at Smyrna, replacing Konya... but then I can see that Nicosia will be easily overrun.

Sardinia is an SC and includes Corsia, Sicily can be occopied
Eastern Med can't move into Pal
Yes armies can be built at Nicosia, it's a home SC
-Do you need me to post v 1.4 on the link?

Slovia is a coastal space.
Cylde no longer can go to NAO

Is anyone else interested enough with this variant to say your input? I'm open to anyone. I have till the Spring Retreats (May 31) at the latest

bumping

Done. (I hope)

v1.4 looks great. Much better than the earlier versions. I like the expanded Scotland Sea and that it firmly places Iceland in Norway/Sweden's hands. The new SoG should make a very interesting dynamic between Spain and France, and thank you so much for renaming Tunisia, one of my pet peeves from the original Diplomacy.

"Eastern Med can't move into Pal"

It very much looks like in v1.4 this is not the case. Can CiS move to Crete?

The new Black Sea is interesting, but I think the Turkey/Russia dynamic has been nerfed. Turkey can't pull the old Armenia tactic, and the fact that Ankara only has access to the West makes it extremely difficult for Turkey to attack Russia. Georgia can be held with just F-Sea of Azov, and any units at Georgia and Sevastopol. Personally I liked the WBS and EBS better.

Turkey still seems a little stunted right now. It's safer, but it's expansion options are severely limited. It can't even challenge England's small colony for ownership of Palestine in 1901! Attacking Russia is highly impractical, especially since it will take any early army two seasons just to get to Armenia. I would suggest either removing Diyarbakir and changing the Black Sea back to east and west, or expanding Palestine so that it's adjacent to Smyrna.

The addition of Saxony makes it so that Germany is at peace with Russia and Austria by default, and more so than the original board game. This was probably intentional, but it makes ganging up on Russia a lot harder... I mean, who can Norway/Sweden count on to alleviate Russian expansion in the north?

You probably expanded Bohemia to make Austria less vulnerable, but I think it also diminishes Austria's expansion prospects. Early access to Galicia from Vienna is pretty important since Budapest will likely be more occupied with south and southeastern issues.

Also, I noticed that with F-Rom, short of F-Nap-Apu, Venice is pretty vulnerable to attack from Austria, and any early occupation of Switzerland. Perhaps Piedmont should expand to meet Tyrolia and shield Venice from Switzerland?

Eastern Med can't move into Pal in v 1.3
CiS can't move into Crete thus making F Nic-CiS a completely hoslite move
-I just can't please you with the black sea thing. Sea of Azov is now the East Black Sea.
-Saxony is a great defensive plus for the Germans. Germany just murdered Russia in the first game.
-Bohemia was bugging me because of the Czech Republic and Slovia thing. But I see the problem now.
-Pie covers Venice now. Germany and France can fight over Swi by themselves in S01.
-Diyarbakir is gone...I'm back where I started!?!
-First Game v 1.4
S01
Germany
A Ber-Pru
A Col-Bel
A Mun-Als
F Kie-Bal
Russia
A War-Gal
A Mos-Ukr
F Sev-Bls
F StP(sc)-GoF
F01
Germany
A Pru-Den
A Bel-Hol
A Als-Bel
F Kie C Pru-Den
Russia
A Ukr-Mol (bounce with A Tra)
A Gal-War
F GoF-Bal
F Bls S Sof Hold
W01
Germany +3!
Russia 0...
The game went into Germany's hand really fast. With Sweden playing a Northern Lepento (A Ice, F Nwg, F Bar)
If I, as Britain didn't step in Germany would won easily.

Now Turkey...everything around him change but, him. Same Starting Position, Units, Regions under his control. Wow. I just can't change Turkey. That tells me something about the highly inflexible position Turkey is in.

Ah, quite interesting. A game is always way better than theory crafting for working out the kinks in a variant.

Hey, you're always free to toss my opinion out the window. It's your variant. I just want to help, and I won't be offended.

I didn't notice that Germany had Belgium adjacent to Cologne. That puts Germany initially adjacent to four neutral SC's with two of them uncontested in Spring 1901. Perhaps the Alsace ought to come up and cover Belgium from Cologne?

Nah it just makes Germany more dangerous thus more open to the stop-the-leader alliances.