"King Alfred is a prime example which guts completely the argument that feudalism stands in the way of centralization."

Does not gut it. It is not even relevant. As far as I know there was no feudalism involved with Alfred coming or going. Not in the strict sense anyway.

I think, putin, the weight of evidence does not support that church squabbles with regents over archbishops was the driving force in decentralization. Infrastructural factors were far more causal.

Putin, while I share your disdain of monotheism, you are wrong to point to christianity as the source of all ill. Put yourself in the shoes of dark age peon. Paganism, both northern and Mediterranean varieties, valued strength, courage and honor. But for the commoner, that meant Might Makes Right. Christianity represented something new: love, hope and charity and all that. There was a reason why Christianity became the religion of the West. And there was a reason why people lost faith in the old religion.

But, as with all things, the religion was co-opted by the powerful and used to their own ends.

@Invictus: "Hey, my forebears also like to drink and fight, thank you very much."

So, let me guess, Finnish?

Paganism at the time of Christianity's rise was in decline, at least in the superstitious/religious sense. Rationalism was taking hold of the Hellenistic world, at least officially. But I don't think the superstitious mindset of the average 'peon' at the time had been dislodged. Instead, they were ready for something else to take its place - and Christianity filled the void. Had Mohammed appeared earlier, likely Islam would have come to dominate the Roman Empire.

I don't think "Might Makes Right" is a fair reflection of the philosophical outlook of the nominally 'pagan' empire at the time. If that were true, then one couldn't explain why Cynicism or Stoicism as philosophical trends gained any popularity. Certainly Platonism didn't have a might-makes-right outlook.

My problem with Christianity as a replacement of the Hellenistic paganism was that it elevated mysticism over rationality and enlightenment. I have the same problem with other currently popular religions, particularly Islam.

Sure, mostly agreeable. But think about the impact of Cynicim and Stoicism on Roman politics (yes of course these things played a role but how much?). I'm just saying christianity was not the source of all problems in European civilization.

As I pointed out previously, the Anglo-Saxons were very non-Christian as they subjugated the Britons. Gildas describes the Saxon invasion:

"All the major towns were laid low by the repeated battering of enemy rams; laid low, too , all the inhabitants - church leaders, priests and people alike, as the swords glinted all around and the flames crackled. It was a sad sight. In the middle of the squares the foundation stones of hight walls and towers that had been torn from their lofty base, holy alters, fragments of corpses, covered with a purple crust of congealed blood, looked as thought they had been mixed up in some dreadful wine-press. . . . So a number of the wretched survivors were caught in the mountains and butchered wholesale. Others, their spirit broken by hunger, went to surrender to the enemy; they were fated to be slaves for ever, if indeed they were not killed strait away, the highest boon."

What I am trying to point out here is the pagan world was not all New Age - Hippy Happiness.

Not saying it's the source of all problems. I'd be the first to tell that the most overused example of Christian violence - the Crusades - was a defensive war. But I am saying that compared to the more rationalistic worldview that it replaced, it was a big step backwards. Just like the Islamic invasion of portions of the Christian world was a big step backwards, comparatively speaking.That is not to say that everything that preceded it was great and wonderful, or that there are no aspects of Christian rule that were beneficent compared to their predecessors (the abolition of ritual sacrifice, is to its great credit).

It was a big step backward how? I would agree it was a big step backward intellectually, culturally, in terms of individual liberty, scientifically, in terms of political-legal development. Sure all that and more.

Was it responsible for the dark ages? It played a role, yeah. Particularly if you agree that the intellectual decline started before the sociopolitical collapse of empire.

Was christianity responsible for decentralization? I think minimal.

In the words of the 21st Century's greatest thinker:

"My fellow Americans, tonight I humbly come before you to declare War on Christmas. We did not ask for this war, but neither will we shrink from it. It is said that we provoked these hostilities through our use of the phrase "Happy Holidays". This is a lie. That was a phrase borne not of aggression, but of convenience.

But as long as our enemies view the words "Happy Holidays", not as a lazy man's way to avoid the time-sucking double-holiday salutation "I wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year", but rather as a subtextual "Fuck you and your Baby Jesus", THERE CAN BE NO PEACE!!

We now ask that Christmas immediately and unilaterally withdraw to its pre-'67 borders: Pre-1667 borders. ... Do this now, or face the full might of our secular multicultural society.

We will fight until we live in a world where free Americans everywhere seek not validation of their religious beliefs through Macy's signage. Where non-sectarian greetings are not seen as diminishing the most ubiquitous two-month holiday emergence since Caligula's birthday party. It's a world where Christmas will have to share state house rotundas, not just with Jews, but with Hindus, Buddhists, wiccans, santeros, atheists....

Until that day, I wish you and your family in this season a happy and heartfelt end of the fiscal fourth quarter."

-Jon Stewart

Happy belief-neutral winter festivities, motherfuckers.

Screw the war on Christmas. There's totally a war on Thanksgiving. It gets skipped over basically every year now and look at how early the stores are opening. Once a time for family and friends has now become a time for greed and buying as much as you can.

@CelticFox,
The war on Thanksgiving isn't a war. A war implies that Thanksgiving is fighting back. This is an organized massacre.

I honestly think this is time for a *massive* worker revolt, and people need to just refuse to come in on Thanksgiving Day. I'm not a huge fan of the labor movement, as many may know - but this is one of those instances where corporations are acting in (my opinion) an immoral and unjust manner, and the workers need to take action.

I don't mind working on Thanksgiving as long as it's A)Volunterary B) You get paid Double time C) You can still make it home for dinner. Starbucks does all those things so I have always tried to work Thanksgiving since it gets me out of cooking Thanksgiving dinner. I know not every company is like that though.

Also, I know this week every Starbucks did their holiday set. We even have a Merry Christmas gift card this year (first time I have ever seen one in the 9 years I've worked there). So don't think there's much war on Christmas right now.

A)Volunterary --- that is key. It's a Federal Holiday, it is a long-standing traditional holiday for everyone except critical employers (hospital, etc).

I would make an exception for people working for companies that have always worked on Thanksgiving and can demonstrate that...but this sudden change is just repugnant. I'm all for capitalism...but I can guarantee I'd be calling in sick on Thanksgiving. that day with my family is much more important to me than a few more dollars.

As far as I know we've always been open Thanksgiving. We are open 24 hours this year, but we're working it out that everyone gets family dinner time and I'm personally doing a very long overnight shift.

There is a growing trend of retailers who have traditionally been closed on Thsnkgiving suddenyl being open...meaning employees that understood when they hired in that this was a Holiday and a day off are suddenly being told they need to come in...The problem is that once one does it, they feel they all have to do it so they dont' lose sales, because it's a highly competitive market and profit margins are thin often times.

That is why if something is to be done about it from a labor-market standpoint, it can't be boycotting one store or workers in one store walking out, but truly has to be a cross-country massive labor move.

Not so sure about a cross country thing. Maybe a company by company thing. Also you can always choose as a consumer to just not shop at those stores. I know Costco for example isn't opening at all. So spend your money there as opposed to Sam's Club.

39 Days till Greed Fest! And what a rockin' good time it will be!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjvriZuj-b0

I would love to go to Disney World some day to see Christmas time there. Not likely to happen anytime soon though.

38 Days until the Holly Jolly christmas!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1TtgODx85c

37 Days 'til Christmas. I wonder if it will be a Silent night..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btV4K9JMVEQ

37 days until you cuss people out in caps lock, with bad grammar, while others spend time with their families.

krellin I'm going to make this my first ever webdip mute thread.

You know i love you but it's way too early to be giving a shit about this.

Awwww....isn't it sad that the eternally angry Putin can't even respond politely to happy Christmas video links? You don't bother me Putin...I'm too busy laughing at you. Actually, I just kind of pity you...

How DO I mute a thread, anyways?

YJ - too bad - you really would have loved that last link...heh heh.