And let me immediately ask a question: What should Germany do?

If England gets into the Baltic, Austria will not be able to keep both Munich and Berlin safely covered. Moreover, if England takes one, the other falls right afterwards. When that happens, Germany's support is no longer needed to hold the stalemate line, and he can't attempt to throw to Austria anymore, so it's over for him.

However, right now, Germany's support to either side is decisive. He can let Asutria break through in Kiel, or support him into Norway. So England/Italy desperately need him, and should be willing to make any sacrifice possible to negotiate his allegiance.

Can Germany weasel his way into a four-way?

Sorry, I've got a heap of games on (2 leagues!) and I thought interest had dropped off from this...

I'll try and comment soon since this is still going.

Bad Professor! Bad! Smack!

Seems as though Austria has gained the most from England's stab however!

Autumn, 1913, Builds:

So the Austrian builds are 2 armies in the 2 home centres, but the Italian disband? Ankara might as well go, as it will quite easily be surrounded and killed by the 3 Austrian armies. Then I'm inclined to think Mars isn't doing much. GoL?

Austria gets Ankara, but where's centre 18 coming from? Nap?

England really hasn't gained a lot from the German stab. What, 3 centres? I guess the goal is to bring about a 3 way draw instead of a 4 way draw, but way back then I thought it was risky and now it has proved to be so. England needs to weigh up exactly what Austria's chances of soloing are and think if it is prudent to keep attacking Germany.

If Italy disbands the units I've hypothesised, then with Prussia, Berlin, Sil, Boh and Munich all tied up, Tyrolia can cover Ven while Trieste can support the Ven fleet into the water, Greece hitting Ionian.

Maybe Mars isn't so useless after all, if Pie slipped down to Tus and Mars covers Pie, but then Tunis is gone...

Can Austria get into Nap from this position. Tricky...

Austria also has the option of Munich hitting Ruhr of course and supporting Baltic into Kiel if Germany agrees, although I can't see how much benefit this would be really...

England and Italy need to stop supporting their holds and make sure they have units on the Austrian front line. The fleet in NAO is a good start, moving in on Norway & St. P.

I can't see Germany surviving this.

Sorry, I need to study the board a bit further to make any more detailed comments. What were the outstanding questions?

"I can't see Germany surviving this."

My sentiment exactly. But that makes Germany liable to do anything, right? If you can't prevent a loss, screw the guy that made you lose? If Germany threatens England he'll throw, I'd say he's not bluffing.

So, what demands should Germany make to England, to get his chance at a four-way?

If I were Germany, I would just try to help Austria solo. There is no way he is getting a draw out of this, just no way. England messed up the shave down to three powers by continuing to attack Italy instead of getting Italy to make sure Austria couldn't become a solo threat, and I would figure he should reap what he sowed.

I think the topic "letting someone win" is very interesting. What do our expertst think: when should you really concider doing so? Also in WTA games? Should you just do it or also tell your enemies on the board that you will? How far can that go? For example, if the winning country needs or claims one of your home-SCs, would that make a difference?

In the specific game: would it be a good idea for Italy to let England move through Mar, although he is very likely stuck there as Austria might be able to cover Pie?

bump

yeah, bump

I guess it varies widely depending on who you speak to, but in my opinion you should always do whatever you can (in WTA, which is my preferred style and I guess the purists choice for the most part) to stop the solo and be included in the draw. There's only 1 winner when someone solos and that winner can celebrate the victory of having ensured the enemy didn't unite against them in time to stop the win. I don't really see where revenge in this context can help. In other cases is can be beneficial to throw off the balance and let one enemy get stronger than the other to cause instability, but obviously this isn't one of those cases. Austria is very close to the win but can (I think from a quick glance) still be stopped by a united effort. Pride shouldn't dominate reason here.

Although I'd be interested to hear counter arguments to the contrary.

Of course, you should do anything that might hurt you chances of being part of the solo! Let's not get crazy!

bump

Where is dean Wiggin? He was supposed to be providing commentary as well I thought

maybe if someone voted draw a while ago he wouldnt need to commentate

Shush about ongoing games

Scratch that, shush because you're in the game

Did England make a misorder? Why not take Sweden while he was at it? He was attacking Norway with force three, which is superfluous.

I agree, seemed like the perfect opportunity to get rid of Germany (which was the whole point, yeah!?)

While we're at it, why support hold Berlin? Prussia could have covered Berlin while Berlin, Silesia & Boh could cover Munich and Munich is then free to hit Bur maybe? All this support holding is a bit weak. Are we just waiting for the draw? No push?

Anyway, seems this will be a 3 way draw now, so England was right to stab after all (although it did get a bit anxious from the side lines!)

Well, its over. Can't say that how I wanted it to end though.

Well, a daft oversight on my part meant any chance of the solo had gone, so I felt I should hit draw before any chance of someone else soloing appeared.

That game seems like it should have been two-way drawn, though on the other hand I suspect an English solo would have been the most likely outcome had it played out more. So yeah, Austria made a good play drawing before England withdrew his draw vote =P

I agree with your first statement, PE. But I disagree with the second. Austria already had a clear stalemate position with Italy. At least take Germany out before you draw.

Ah, but despite being stabbed by England, and then by me, Germany kept talking and tryin to prove his usefulness, even to the end of bouncing Eng in Bal in the final turn. I thought it fair to include him in the draw, so I did. I'm not fussed about GR or points, but having fun.

I'll write a proper EOG soon, but I thought I'd respond to this 1st of all

Oh man that was intense!

Who was Austria's advisor?

@PE

Really? Austria would have clearly got the solo if England kept pushing.

Oh, and great job PeteU! Really well played.

An EOG:

Figuring that I was unlikely to survive as Italy, and that I had backup to pull me out of a bad situation, I thought it would be interesting to experiment with an all-out attack on France coordinated with England and Germany. So I made peace with Austria. Then Lando opened with Mun-Tyr, which threw that plan into disarray. Things were dicey for a while...I didn't really want to be going after Austria but had no other good option.

I don't know if Austria could tell that I was only trying to build enough strength to engage him as an equal or not, but once I got Greece in Spring 1903 we were able to make an arrangement. From 1904-1907 we had a very smooth relationship, taking apart France, Russia, and Germany. I was talking to Austria and to England, and figured on a 3-way draw--a great outcome considering that I was Italy and my original opening had been totally blown. I wasn't giving up on making a deal with either Austria or England and going for a better finish though.

England messed this up by being totally untrustworthy. After his Autumn 1905 retreat to GoL, he had the gall to send me a note saying, "the GoL fleet should be no worry to you." I made what effort I could to give him the benefit of what trust I could, but he continued to move very aggressively while insulting abgemacht's intelligence by insisting he had no intention of pushing against me.

Despite MANY attempts to get England to see reason, he insisted on forcing me to deploy my entire navy in a stalemate line against him, even while he told me that I had to stab Austria. I insisted that he stab Germany first, and expected that we would have a 4-way draw at the end of 1910. Instead, England really did stab Germany. When Austria built F Tri in 1910, I started to wonder if England and Austria had worked out a deal for a 2-way draw. That seemed even more likely when I watched Austria turn on Germany in Spring 1912, devouring his former ally quickly and efficiently. I knew my turn would come next.

It's really unfortunate that England told me so many bald-faced lies in 1905-7. I think that he was honestly trying to be cooperative at the end, but I couldn't take the chance and so our cooperation was hindered. I still don't understand why he allowed Germany to survive, but I'm so glad mongoose stepped in to that position that I don't mind.

PS---Austria would ABSOLUTELY have gotten the solo if England had kept pushing. Abgemacht was helping me move in a way that would enable me to throw the game to Austria if necessary.

EOG – Austria
Firstly, I’d like the thank everyone for a great game. I’ve enjoyed it, and I’ve also learnt a lot, which has been good.
Secondly, I hate playing Austria. Lots of enemies, and it can be hard to find an ally. Plus limited fleet building can make a solo challenging.
As Austria I like R & I as allies (sorry Eden, nothing personal but I don’t see A/T as a viable long term alliance). So a ‘better juggernaut’ was proposed, and non-aggression with G&I. The plan was to get a good start, take out the Turks, and then decide which ally to stab (first).
Ger moving to Tyr was unexpected, but some frantic diplomacy meant that that unit moved back. Tyr-Vie or Trie would have completely done me in in 1901.
So the assault on Turkey started, but Italy started messing about. Although we worked together the rest of the game (mostly), I never felt that Italy fully trusted me. Luckily, we agreed that we needed to ally to make sure Eng didn’t get into the Med once France fell, and the split of Turkey with the Russians (while also working with Germany) made sense. That also made the decision of which ally to stab easy (strategically) – my armies needed Italian fleets, so Russia had to go, so by 1905, he was gone.
For a while it shaped up as E/G vs I/A – I would have settled for the draw at that point (4 way), but Eng was pressing for 3 (at most), and I figured stabbing Italy would benefit him more than me. So Germany and I danced, as did E&I.
So we danced, and I guessed right a couple of times. Then Eng stabbed G, so i agreed to prop Germany up. Eng was trying to get G eliminated, but I was prepared to do that – until he agreed that I would get Ber, Mun & St P – at which point I started counting....and got very lucky when Ita moved to Ank not Smy – a 3 build year
So Ger took a hammering (sorry), and I started on Italy. But I felt the chance of a solo went when I didn’t bounce either Nor or Fin in the final turn, and I felt it would have been unfair to deny I & G a share of the draw when they had played well.
I got some excellent advice in the endgame. Virtually every successful move came from discussions with my advisor, which was exactly what I needed – it pushed a 10SC power to 17 with a shot of a solo