So? They are still working class. I have friends living in the upper middle (some better than me) who live in the city and don't own cars. Car ownership is not a class issue. Your own statement shows it isn't. So don't try to use it as one.

I don't think he was. He was saying that some take advantage of the boost with no desire to help themselves and they should be cut off from it. Those who are trying to help themselves are those who deserve our additional help. At least that was how I interpreted it.

Alright, in general, would you say more rich people or poor people have cars?

Poor people in rural areas need them more, so are more willing to scrimp elsewhere to own one.

I don't think that Leif sharing his story was offensive. I think perhaps he is lucky to have parents who encouraged him to work for things like a car because it is a good life lesson. I have had friends for whom being born into a rich family has been more of a curse than a blessing (obviously statistically it is better to be born higher up the ladder but individual stories are different) because they didn't have to work for anything and thus did not develop their full potential. Likewise I know people from working class families and in a way this was good for them - the lessons they learnt doing it for themselves has continues to pay dividends throughtout their lives.

I think an important difference class-wise, more so than the benefits of money, is the expectations that one has from life. I have known people from the lower end of working class who were talented intelligent people and maybe they went to university for a while but they just didn't have the motivation. They couldn't help it either. Its hard to explain, but my impression is that they were trapped psychologically. For example if half of your friends are unemployed drug addicts it somehow lowers the bar of your own expecations. Whereas my upper middle-class friends felt that had to meet their parents high expectations - this motivated them. Whereas for some of my working class friends, their parents did not have those expectations.

Obviously wealth confers privilege. Important not denying that. But assuming any X means Y is bad.

Putin33: Why did you CD from our live game that just ended (gameID=86042) when you have been wasting all your time bitching in this thread?

Talk about honour and respect.

"And most working and middle class kids I went to school with still had access to cars and the like."

That's a funny definition of working class.

Also, keep in mind that in the 2000's when his story takes place, someone had to pay for him to learn to drive and be available to help him practice and lend him a mechanically sound car to take his test on.

This last part was a bitch for my family, for while we were enormous, everyone's vehicle was a working vehicle and couldn't be spared during testing hours.

"Why did you CD from our live game that just ended (gameID=86042) when you have been wasting all your time bitching in this thread?"

Overestimated my available time. Familial obligations.

But...you've been here posting the whole time? Sorry, I don't mean to be annoying about this - but there's the evidence all over the forum.

No, I haven't. I was away for a while and came back. Anyway, it's clear you wage a jihad against anyone who calls into question the awesomeness of your victories. I wasn't even talking about 'honor and respect'.

I prefer to wage jihad against people who CD from my games :P

@ SD, excellent points, though as it seemed to me that Putin had things painted, I was handed everything on a silver spoon by dearest old dad, and should be ashamed that I had things so well off. I'm somehow less of a human for owning a freaking car right out of high school, and my demonstration of personal responsibility is a putrid stain on the face of this earth that should be lamented. You'd think I ate a child or something. (True, I did agree with Draugnar, but the man had a good point that personal responsibility just ain't what it used to be!)

Anyways, I would like to clarify a few things, so let me start with what I did NOT say, both to preempt any further attempt to twist my words, and just in case various participants in this dialogue are still confused about what I didn't say.

I never said nor do I claim any of the following:

1. I worked from nothing with no advantages whatsoever to get where I am.

2. I have this glorious rags to riches story where I left a crappy horrible impoverished life behind me. (My childhood and young adult life was pretty good and I'll readily admit I had a lot of things going for me. Time all through school and especially high school to focus on my education without having to worry about where food was coming from that helped me get good grades and ultimately scholarships in college for one was a major advantage of growing up in a middle class home. There are a multitude of others for which I am very grateful and many have been mentioned here for me. I could go on about how "priviliged" my life is but largeham would soon tire of that and demand his $16 back.)

3. Anyone who truly works should have a middle class or higher lifestyle to show for it or they didn't work hard enough.

4. I have zero empathy for people who aren't as well of as I am. (There is a certain segment for which this is true, see rant below, but it has nothing to with their economic status. It has to do with their personal responsibility level, the closer to complete lack thereof, the closer to zero empathy I can demonstrate).

5. Its a person's own fault if they have trouble making ends meet.

I'm sure I missed a small handful of things that I did not say but you get the picture.


The rightwinger label that's been plastered to my forehead somehow entitles Putin to pronounce with some authority that I am somehow incapable of empathy. Oh and apparently this stereotype is true of anyone for whom the label rightwinger might fit, likely anyone right of Putin on the political spectrum.

<rant>
I'll gladly proclaim my lack of empathy, nay downright and utter disdain, for laziness and irresponsibility that demands the hard work I put in be used to help someone who refuses to help themselves.
I'll say it without an "anecdote" or "bullshit personal story" to qualify exactly who my disdain is aimed at.
And don't give me crap that such a person doesn't exist or is some rare corner case that hardly deserves recognition. Human nature is downright selfish and if "intellectuals" will wax poetic about how the hard work of a few should be distributed freely to anyone who doesn't have the results of said hard work, whether fairly or unfairly, there will be those who jump on the bandwagon and demand they be given, or in some cases will forcefully take what they don't have because they somehow feel they deserve it as much or more than those who worked for it. I'm sick and tired of this classist bullshit that EVERYONE who has it well off somehow used and abused someone else to get there by making that someone else utterly destitute or enslaving them in a lower class is pure and utter codswallop.

Lastly I'll reserve my most bitter diatribe for those who had some sort of privilege or resources and through laziness, greed, corruption, severe irresponsibility, etc. wasted or squandered it and now require help from the government. YOU FUCKING MORONS! Learn what an honest day's work is, get a job, and pull yourself together before you die a waste of good oxygen.
</rant>

@ spyman, I said hard work actually pays off.

Actually let me quote directly what the comment was that sent Putin's universe crumbling down around him: "Shocking what can happen when you work for something."

I certainly wasted the privileges I emerged from high school with.

But.

Even at my most destitute, the only thing approaching government aid I've ever taken was unemployment, which I have both paid in more than I've taken from and didn't hold onto when I wasn't actively looking for work (or scam in any other way).

By and large I got myself into the first mess I found myself in which was of my own causing (although a previously undiagnosed mental illness had a hand in it, I take ownership). The recession put me in the second slump, but I focused on what I actually needed in my life and let my credit rating go to shit while I provided a home and food for my family. It was tough. But I made it through.

I dunno, man. I mean, I was raised never to take government money. But I'm willing to waste some of my tax dollars on people who shouldn't get it in order to ensure that the people we both agree should get it receive it.

Actually, I lie, I have taken government money, but I actually do a service for the government in order to get it, it's not a hand-out by any stretch.

Right, I "twisted" your words, because what on earth can "shocking what can happen when you work for something" mean? What was the point of saying this? That work ethic is rare? Why is it "shocking"? Because you're some lonely soul out there working hard for what you got, while everybody else demands handouts while wondering why they haven't gotten ahead?

The implication was clear. But continue with your disingenuous denials. I've gotten used to it from you.

If only the rightwing ranters about 'handouts' applied their ire to all the rich parasites who do nothing but get all sorts of beneficial policies from the government. Oh wait, it's "classist" to complain about rich people, but perfectly acceptable to bash people on disability who supposedly don't deserve it.

And just to clarify, we are all human, all prone to selfishness, all make mistakes and so on and so forth. That's not what I'm talking about for people who waste privilege or resources. I'm not at all condemning you SD or anyone else who's made mistakes, as I've made my fair share as well. Lots of people truly do need extra help and this help should be provided. I'm talking about chronic waste, perpetual laziness, greed that enslaves people and is worse than straight thievery, and years and years and years of sucking the government tit, because its easier than holding down a real job.

Ever heard of sarchasm Putin?

"Perfectly acceptable to bash people on disability who supposedly don't deserve it."

Remind me when I said this?

Because it's so easy to get a 'real job' for people, right? Nobody sucks money from the 'government tit' for years and years, except defense contractors, oil, and ag companies. Have you ever applied for disability, or unemployment? There are strict limits. There are plenty of people who need assistance who don't get it, thanks people like you who get on their high horse because they bought a car with their summer spending money and feel special about it.

"all the rich parasites who do nothing but get all sorts of beneficial policies from the government"

Which makes everyone one who can be considered well off or privilege the scum of the earth and tax them all to hell because they deserve it.

"Remind me when I said this?"

The only people you could refer to are people on disability, since that's the only way you get government assistance for "years and years" unless you're a corporation.

"and tax them all to hell because they deserve it."

There are more scummy, criminal rich people than there are poor people who love living on government assistance, which barely provides enough to feed yourself as it is.

"There are plenty of people who need assistance who don't get it"
Hey, over here! This has been my point all along. I'm glad we finally got to the point that the people who need it aren't getting it because the people who don't deserve it are.

It's amazing that you go on this speech about how people are selfish, but somehow come away thinking that that doesn't apply to most rich people. I guess only poor people are "selfish". Pity the much maligned rich people, they get such a bum rap.

"There are more scummy, criminal rich people than there are poor people who love living on government assistance, which barely provides enough to feed yourself as it is. "

Got a stat for that? That's pretty sizable chunk of the 1% and a pretty small fraction of the 99% for that to be the case.

"I'm glad we finally got to the point that the people who need it aren't getting it because the people who don't deserve it are.
"

No, don't even pretend we're agreeing here. The people who don't deserve it are those rich parasites you keep crying crocodile tears over. There are very few ways anybody can cheat the system while living hand to mouth on government assistance.

"It's amazing that you go on this speech about how people are selfish, but somehow come away thinking that that doesn't apply to most rich people."

So apparently hard work is selfishness now?