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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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ILN (100 D)
25 Mar 12 UTC
No in game messaging
I have no idea what the point of disabling in game messaging is, this game is called diplomacy, the outcome of the game is highly influenced by your diplomatic skills, take that away, like in the anon gunboats, and the game becomes luck, with a bit of strategy.
12 replies
Open
SantaClausowitz (360 D)
25 Mar 12 UTC
Take Away EVERYONE'S right to Marry
Since we obviously can't give Homosexuals the right to marry because it could expand to other issues, such as pedophilia, bestiality and polygamy, we must take away everyone's right to marry. After all having the institution of marriage at all threatens to lead to give marriage to homosexuals, which, in turn could expand to other issues such as pedophilia, bestiality and polygamy. Protect the institution of marriage by abolishing it.
17 replies
Open
Sargmacher (0 DX)
09 Mar 12 UTC
Gay Marriage
Discuss my following point...
383 replies
Open
goldfinger0303 (3157 DMod)
25 Mar 12 UTC
The Masters
Just an update. Also, mod team please check your email.
2 replies
Open
mapleleaf (0 DX)
24 Mar 12 UTC
What's the best cheap pocket digital camera?
For the youngest leaf.
9 replies
Open
dubmdell (556 D)
23 Mar 12 UTC
Have Gunboat, Will Travel-2 EOG
Good game everyone! Post your EOGs here. gameID=83968

Mine will be a little later this evening.
13 replies
Open
Vaftrudner (2533 D)
24 Mar 12 UTC
Public humiliation
I like public press live games. I get tired playing gunboats, but live full press becomes a nightmare unless it has 10 minute phases, and if it has 10 minute phases, some dick will use them for every phase. If there's interest, I'd like to set up a few of them with moderate pots and passwords.

I'd like to try one tonight, at around 11 PM GMT/7 PM EST/4.30 AM IST. I'm thinking a pot of 200 D. Please let me know if you're interested, and if this pot is too expensive.
18 replies
Open
Vaftrudner (2533 D)
25 Mar 12 UTC
Boats with guns. EOG
gameID=84112

That's the drop that made the cup of hate ejaculate. It's the last low pot anon game I'll ever play. Cecil Lizard, how many fucking CDs does it take for you to draw or cancel?
24 replies
Open
Yonni (136 D(S))
24 Mar 12 UTC
WebDip League
Interest in reviving the league has been up and down over the past couple of months so I thought to just jump right in and see if I could do it. I've put together a survey/sign up sheet. **continued after the jump**
12 replies
Open
Putin33 (111 D)
25 Mar 12 UTC
Thread for Fulham's Dishonest Arguments against Gay Marriage
Fulham continually compares legal gay marriage to legal bestial marriage & legal incestuous marriage. Discuss.
2 replies
Open
NigeeBaby (100 D(G))
25 Mar 12 UTC
What price an Afghan life?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17503733

Reality bites.....
2 replies
Open
Holy_Crusader2113 (100 D)
23 Mar 12 UTC
Teaching theories in school.
The big bang theory and the evolutionary theory are both taught in schools today. However, these are both theories and have evidence but not enough to make them facts. If so should creationism or any other origin belief be taught as well. There is plenty of evidence to back them up as well. I want to see your opinion. (Aliens influenced our evolution is one origin theory I was talking about, but there are many others.)
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dubmdell (556 D)
23 Mar 12 UTC
I only read the opening post. Forgive me if I am retreading ground.

"these are both theories and have evidence but not enough to make them facts"

You obviously have a misunderstanding of what a theory is (and most Americans do). In science, "theory" is practically synonymous with "fact" (as far as laymen are concerned). There is enormous evidence for big band and evolution, /even more than there is for gravity/. Let me type that again, because it is important. There is /more/ evidence for evolution and big bang than there is for gravity. Try to let that sink in for a minute, and consider then, if you are willing to accept gravity on such little evidence, why would you reject scientific theories with much more evidence?

The prevailing reason that creationists et al cannot reject evolution is very simple: /the entire modern medical field is based on the fact that evolution is true/. If evolution were false, modern medicine would not exist as it does. Period.

So why do we hear that evolution, big band, etc, are "just theories?" It seems rooted in the colloquial speech where a hypothesis and theory have become synonymous. Let me appeal to the great Theodore Sturgeon (a science fiction author, I might add): "Here's the point to be made - there are no synonyms. There are no two words that mean exactly the same thing. I don't care about the dictionaries of synonyms and antonyms. If there were two words that meant exactly the same thing, there wouldn't be two words. That means that every word you use has a certain amount of semantic or psychological freight that it carries that makes it different from other words." Suffice to say, a hypothesis is not a theory, no matter how good of a screen play it makes.

But really, if we were going to base which theories to teach based on the evidence, then we would teach the ones we are already teaching. Here's a simple formula for deciding whether a theory should be taught: e*T, where T is the theory in question and e is the number of evidences supporting it. Any theory with a value "> 0" should be taught.

Evolution: e*T = (astronomical number)*Evolution > 0
Creation: e*T = 0*Creation = zero*Creation = 0
Aliens: e*T = 0*Aliens = zero*Aliens = 0
Big bang, gravity: (not zero)*T > 0

Hm. Well, that sure does help me know what to advocate at the next PTA!

But seriously, gravity is less well attested than the two major cosmological scientific theories that religious and conspiracy nuts are trying to undermine. Unfortunately, their alternative "theories" (see those quotes? That's because /they aren't theories/) are less well attested than gravity.

Let me also reiterate, /medical science doesn't work if evolution is false/. </soapbox>
Gunfighter06 (224 D)
23 Mar 12 UTC
"Atheism is so open and shut a case of being true I don't really respect the rationality of someone who doesn't agree with it."

So, you don't respect my rationality just because I have analyzed the evidence and reached the conclusion that A) the probability of the existence of a supreme being is greater than the probability of the nonexistence of a supreme being and B) I have nothing to lose by believing in a supreme being.

Also, atheism is not "open and shut". You cannot prove that God does not exist.
☺ (1304 D)
23 Mar 12 UTC
"There is /more/ evidence for evolution and big bang than there is for gravity. Try to let that sink in for a minute, and consider then, if you are willing to accept gravity on such little evidence, why would you reject scientific theories with much more evidence?

I hadn't heard that before, do you have a source for that? It's hard to quantify "more evidence" and "less evidence", but I found this very interesting.

--------

Also, on a side note, I would argue that their *is* evidence for creationism, which makes your formalism at the end flawed. From a Bayesian perspective, the probability of creationism being true given that so many people believe it is higher than the probability of creationism being true given no one believes it. Ergo the widespread belief is (fairly weak) evidence for creationism.

Also, I'd encourage people to reread my post on the last page if you missed it </selfpromotion>
☺ (1304 D)
23 Mar 12 UTC
"So, you don't respect my rationality just because I have analyzed the evidence and reached the conclusion that A) the probability of the existence of a supreme being is greater than the probability of the nonexistence of a supreme being and B) I have nothing to lose by believing in a supreme being."

Why do you believe the probability of a supreme being is higher than nonexistence of a supreme being?

"Also, atheism is not "open and shut". You cannot prove that God does not exist.""

And you can't prove that the sun will rise tomorrow. But if you say "I don't believe the sun will rise tomorrow", I think most people would call you an idiot.
☺ (1304 D)
23 Mar 12 UTC
"That sentence should read "Whatever that number is, it, by the laws of probability the probability that God exists AND he sent his son to Earth must be less".

That's what I get for not proofreading. "

And I still messed it up. But I think you get the point.
zultar (4180 DMod(P))
23 Mar 12 UTC
There is an applied epistomological issue here, the unstated premise of your arguments.
You are explicitly applying the standards of an axiomatic system to deconstruct the beliefs or constructs of another system that does not begin with the same axioms. You are using the rules of logic and mathematics to judge or examine someone's fundamental religious beliefs which are based on faith. Their beliefs will fall apart when analyzed under logic, but then your logic will also fall apart when analyzed under their faith. To say that your analysis is of course superior is to presuppose one system is inherently better or more valid than the other. Now if you can prove that logic is inherently superior than faith, then I would love to see that because that in itself is impossible. You cannot prove that logic is better than faith by using the rules of logic to "prove" that because it presupposes the logic is somehow more fundamental than faith.
☺ (1304 D)
23 Mar 12 UTC
"To say that your analysis is of course superior is to presuppose one system is inherently better or more valid than the other. Now if you can prove that logic is inherently superior than faith, then I would love to see that because that in itself is impossible."

I'm sorry, zultar... but what the hell? There's one fundamental difference: logic gives testable conclusions about the world that can be observed, predicted, and utilized to increase the quality of the human condition. This process is known as science. We didn't get very far as a species trying to heal people using faith. The placebo effect got us some of the way, but another word for that is "witch doctor".

If it's not patently obvious why logic is superior to faith in that debate... well. I'm just not sure I care to take the effort to try to make that argument.
zultar (4180 DMod(P))
23 Mar 12 UTC
Smiley, I am a mathematician and a physicist by training and I have a minor in history of science. I know something about science, its paradigms, and its development. That does not mean I think science is the end all and be all. I am not here to argue that religion is that either. Those who know me know that I go with reasoning and logic over scripture any day, but that does not mean I am so arrogant as to think that science can explain everything. I am sorry but not any one of us can verify the inherent truthfulness of every branch of science and logic. You take that they work on faith. Unless you yourself have tested and studied every single system, then you don't have the experience to say that they are indeed right.
My problem with your argument is that you think you know more than the rest of us. Until you can sit down and show me that you know more than me in every single branch of knowledge in science and math, please do not presume your superiority.
zultar (4180 DMod(P))
23 Mar 12 UTC
There is an applied epistomological issue here, the unstated premise of your arguments.
You are explicitly applying the standards of an axiomatic system to deconstruct the beliefs or constructs of another system that does not begin with the same axioms. You are using the rules of logic and mathematics to judge or examine someone's fundamental religious beliefs which are based on faith. Their beliefs will fall apart when analyzed under logic, but then your logic will also fall apart when analyzed under their faith. To say that your analysis is of course superior is to presuppose one system is inherently better or more valid than the other. Now if you can prove that logic is inherently superior than faith, then I would love to see that because that in itself is impossible. You cannot prove that logic is better than faith by using the rules of logic to "prove" that because it presupposes the logic is somehow more fundamental than faith.
zultar (4180 DMod(P))
23 Mar 12 UTC
Ooops, stupid refresh on old screen.
☺ (1304 D)
23 Mar 12 UTC
"Unless you yourself have tested and studied every single system, then you don't have the experience to say that they are indeed right."

I don't have to. For every system I have studied, the scientific method has gotten us very far and worked reasonably well. It's a matter of evidential extrapolation to say that this is likely true for other fields as well.
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
23 Mar 12 UTC
And with that, back to my thesis...
dubmdell (556 D)
23 Mar 12 UTC
"hadn't heard that before, do you have a source for that? It's hard to quantify "more evidence" and "less evidence", but I found this very interesting."

Hey rlumley. Long time, no see!
This is generally accepted, but I did a quick google search and found this blogger who seems to explain the position fairly well. I know it isn't the hard source you were probably hoping for, but I can dig deeper if his explanation is unsatisfactory.

http://adamcoster.com/2008/03/19/evolution-more-sensical-than-gravity/


"Also, on a side note, I would argue that their *is* evidence for creationism, which makes your formalism at the end flawed. From a Bayesian perspective, the probability of creationism being true given that so many people believe it is higher than the probability of creationism being true given no one believes it. Ergo the widespread belief is (fairly weak) evidence for creationism."

Ad populum is not an evidence. By that same logic, the earth should have been flat and we should live in a geocentric universe. However, these did not hold true for our ancestors. Ad populum will not work for us today, either.
zultar (4180 DMod(P))
23 Mar 12 UTC
You know other people have another word for "evidential extrapolation" faith.

I am not here to defend religion. I think everybody should take more math and science courses because that's what's needed in the 21st century. People should be more educated, more compassionate, more able to learn and adapt and not rely on authority. But your attitude of I know it all because I have studied some system is just pure arrogance. There are issues to the scientific method as there are epistemological issues. Some people devote their entire lives to study those issues. And here you come, knight Logos in shining armor. He who has devoted a year and a half to study these things has figured everything out.

Most real scientists understand that they only know their specific field and that outside of that field, they have only a passing understanding of the nuances and subtleties. Can you even claim to be an expert in a particular field?
orathaic (1009 D(B))
23 Mar 12 UTC
+1 zultar! i saw some big words and was afraid that you were going to us bullshit to back some position, but then you beautifully pointed out a flaw in smilie's arguement.

On the other hand, the position was 'lack of respect for their[religious people's] rationality'

And as such, the view that faith-based systems are more valid than logic-based ones does indeed lead some to conclude that those holding such views lack a respectable level of rationality... n'est pas?
zultar (4180 DMod(P))
23 Mar 12 UTC
@orathaic, oui, I agree with you. The flip side is also applicable here, which is why I spent the earlier part of this evening criticizing and making fun of HC. The issue that I have with fanatics is that they argue from the premise that whatever they believe in is inherently better. It does not matter if it's faith or logic. I have a problem with both sides when they choose to argue in such a manner.
orathaic (1009 D(B))
23 Mar 12 UTC
I would usually say that i put my faith in science. And take both systems to be faith-based, because in some way they are... And i have yet to see any faith-based position come out and say that those other faith-based believers are super awesome... We can respect other people And their right to hold stupid beliefs without respecting the belief itself.
zultar (4180 DMod(P))
23 Mar 12 UTC
On a more than less serious note, ora, I really like the first part of your sentence "I saw some big words and was afraid." The rest is not all that relevant.
☺ (1304 D)
23 Mar 12 UTC
"Ad populum is not an evidence."

I'd disagree. Anything that makes an observation more likely is evidence for that observation. It might be very weak evidence, and in this case almost certainly is, but if you're coming at it from a Bayesian perspective, it is evidence. This post makes the point I'm trying to make very well, if you don't understand the (largely academic) point I'm making, I'd recommend it: http://lesswrong.com/lw/in/scientific_evidence_legal_evidence_rational/

zultar: I really don't see where you're coming from. I don't feel like I've been particularly arrogant here. I haven't claimed to be an expert in any field. I haven't said I'm smarter than anyone. I made an argument, which for all intents and purposes you've said you agreed with, and all you've really done is accuse me of being arrogant.

What I will do I will unabashedly support the superiority of science. That's not me, that's not you, it's not any one thing. It's a process for arriving at truth. And it's a process that has been tested and shown to work for the last 300 years.

You're right that you can't "prove" logic. I think this is a point that's widely been admitted by philosophers for years. But you can look at where logic has gotten us and look at where faith has gotten us. I don't feel it's judgmental to say that one of those is demonstrably wrong.

If you want my honest opinion (read: speculation): You're projecting LW onto me because you have some (presumably bad?) experience there for some reason.
zultar (4180 DMod(P))
23 Mar 12 UTC
I think that's the key to understanding that all systems are faith-based in one way or another, either a priori or a posteriori. At the end of the day, you have a conviction that what you believe is true.

I don't know what LW is and no, I have not had any bad experience. I'm actually kinda blessed that way. And no, I am sorry that you do not see how you have come off as arrogant but that you undoubtedly have. And no, you are wrong about how long science has been in effect. It's been around for as least as long as Aristotle. We used his "scientific" system for 2000 years, then we found something better, "Newtonian" and we used it for 300 years, then we found something slightly better general relativity and quantum mechanics, and now we are kinda stuck because we don't have a GUT or a TOE (yet) and those fucking strings are really really hard to understand.

You proclaim to have faith in a system that you have less knowledge than me about, and yet you use this system to make conclusions.
☺ (1304 D)
23 Mar 12 UTC
300 years wasn't a reference to Aristotle, it was a reference to Bayes, who was far, far more important. I'm not a traditional rationalist; I'm a Bayesian.
☺ (1304 D)
23 Mar 12 UTC
(Bayes and the rest of the scientific revolution)
☺ (1304 D)
23 Mar 12 UTC
And LW = LessWrong
orathaic (1009 D(B))
23 Mar 12 UTC
Big words... Be afraid! Be very afraid :)
I think i realised what i was saying and i liked it.

Ok, anything that makes an observation more likely is evidence. But does a single persOn believing something make it more likely?

I might claim that, for exmple, the Truth is too complex for any human to fully comprehend, thus what is the Truth is believed by precisely zero people and further anything a person believes is guarenteed to be not the Truth...
☺ (1304 D)
23 Mar 12 UTC
"But does a single persOn believing something make it more likely?"

Infinitesimally so, I would say. The rest of that just confuses me...
zultar (4180 DMod(P))
23 Mar 12 UTC
Agreed with your analysis, ora. If you take your premise to be correct, then your analysis is correct.
I am not sure I see the relevance though. Unless you want to argue that everything is either true or it's not. We don't live by pure logic. We humans live heuristically.
zultar (4180 DMod(P))
23 Mar 12 UTC
I wonder how smiley here would deal with Zen...

On that note, I will call it a night with two thoughts:
1. Life can only be lived, not reasoned.
2. There is no spoon.
There may be more evidence for evolution or the Big Bang than there is for gravity...

But there's a lot more hard evidence for gravity. *badumtish*
Celticfox (100 D(B))
23 Mar 12 UTC
@Zultar Like the Matrix much do you?
zultar (4180 DMod(P))
23 Mar 12 UTC
Oh alright, one more reply:
The Matrix is a fun movie, but the quote is also a koan.

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237 replies
Gunfighter06 (224 D)
24 Mar 12 UTC
Fallout: New Vegas DLCs
I have Lonesome Road and have completed it, and I am looking to buy another DLC. What's the next best DLC? I'm leaning towards either Honest Hearts or Old World Blues.
(I'm looking at *you*, President Eden)
8 replies
Open
redhouse1938 (429 D)
24 Mar 12 UTC
Hey President Eden
Campaign like your life depends on it, this is no bueno
http://www.elsevier.nl/web/Nieuws/334206/Rick-Santorum-favoriet-in-Louisiana.htm
12 replies
Open
Gunfighter06 (224 D)
15 Mar 12 UTC
How did you pick your username?
I've seen some creative ones on here.
97 replies
Open
Gobbledydook (1389 D(B))
25 Mar 12 UTC
5 point Challenge.
In order to lose GR, I invite all you masters to beat the 4.5-year-old geezer that is gobbledydook.
Apply below for a chance to win free GR!
0 replies
Open
Barn3tt (41969 D)
25 Mar 12 UTC
The Czech's WTA GB-4 EOG
.
11 replies
Open
Jakers37 (0 DX)
25 Mar 12 UTC
New Game
Please join European War 6 in the next 10 mins. There are 5 minutes cycles.
1 reply
Open
krellin (80 DX)
23 Mar 12 UTC
Funnier with Booze...
Anyone throwing up...but *especially* a hot blonde hugging the porcelain god...funnier with booze!
18 replies
Open
Thucydides (864 D(B))
24 Mar 12 UTC
Oh my god you guys I have less than 4 hours to finish all this work.
Tettleton's Chew teach me how to be successful and responsible.
25 replies
Open
NigeeBaby (100 D(G))
24 Mar 12 UTC
Help on a specific move/strategy
Ok, if I attack a unit suported by another unit and then the supporting unit is supported - if then my 1st support unit is attacked supported by the unit I'm attacking will I win the SC or will it be a stand off?
14 replies
Open
Dudlajz (2659 D)
21 Mar 12 UTC
JC Bryan Invitational rematch. Who is in for a rematch?
So far we have: 1. Dudlajz 2. Trodonte Feel free to apply...
22 replies
Open
goldfinger0303 (3157 DMod)
24 Mar 12 UTC
Mod team
Please check your email. Thank you.
0 replies
Open
Sargmacher (0 DX)
24 Mar 12 UTC
1-Day Phase World Game Gunboat
Needs some more players to start please!

gameID=83780
9 replies
Open
mr.orange (100 D)
24 Mar 12 UTC
New Game Now!
Hi all, new 5 min game now!...You have 15 min to join, lets make it good
3 replies
Open
President Eden (2750 D)
24 Mar 12 UTC
Am I the only person whose extended family really sucks at politics?
^^^
38 replies
Open
HDK (100 D)
23 Mar 12 UTC
Christian / Muslim Military Prowess: Who Is the Best in History?
Pretty much as the post says - though I would add that this is history in general as opposed to just the modern period.
40 replies
Open
2ndWhiteLine (2606 D(B))
24 Mar 12 UTC
JOIN OUR GOOGLE HANGOUT
You won't get banned promise
30 replies
Open
orathaic (1009 D(B))
24 Mar 12 UTC
Reality has a blatant liberal bias
^discuss
6 replies
Open
King Atom (100 D)
24 Mar 12 UTC
Any one else tired of the FoxNews-Hating socialist lefties that troll this site?
Any time someone starts a forum to state an arguement it is filled with trolls mocking other peoples opinions because they are not their own. I know as soon as I post this trolls will flood it, but I want to know if I am not the only sensible person who wants to see other opinions and ideas and think about them.
13 replies
Open
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