I don't think the Stones rate compared with the Beatles. They were trying to copy the blues while the Beatles forged something that was really new. The genius of the Beatles, right from their early days, was the way they synthesized so many disparate element from Buddy Holly, Elvis, Chuck Berry and Gene Vincent, to all girl groups like the Ronnettes. And later Dylan, pop art influence, British music hall, Eastern philosophy, the sitar, previously unheard of production techniques, films, it goes on and on. Plus the persona they brought to the music. The wit and intelligence. They made rock and roll credible to those who previously considered the genre to be a fad. Young and old. They define the sixties more so than any other artist. And that was a special decade in the 20th century. They released a landmark album every six months, and we all know most of those songs on each of those albums (even if we don't consider ourselves fans). The Beatles were a truly remarkable phenomenon.

Well, compare, in terms of the musicianship and originality, etc, the work of, say Led Zeppelin or Black Sabbath, against the majority of the Beatles' output.

============
MUSICIANSHIP
============

Both Zeppelin and Sabbath kill the Beatles on the level of musicianship. Let's look at the personnel here:

VOCALS:

Beatles - John Lennon and Paul McCartney. Both quite pleasant singing voices, and some very nice vocal harmonies, but neither John nor Paul is a 5 star singer.

Led Zep - Robert Plant. One of the most significant singers in rock music. A great and unique voice.

Black Sabbath - Ozzy Osbourne / Ronnie James Dio. Ozzy has a powerful and immediately distinctive voice, while Dio is widely acknowledged as one of the greatest rock and metal singers of all time.


DRUMS:

Beatles - Ringo Starr. As John once quipped - 'not even the best drummer in the Beatles'.

Led Zep - John Bonham. One of the greatest drummers in the history of rock music. Comparing Ringo to John Bonham would be like comparing a water pistol to a howitzer.

Black Sabbath - Bill Ward. A talented drummer with a heavy and distinctive rhythmic style. Not quite up to Bonham's level but easily more than a match for Ringo.


BASS:

Beatles - Paul McCartney. A highly competent bass player, certainly, but generally when McCartney's achievements are listed, you hear about his songwriting, his business acumen, and his charity work - the fact he also plays bass is hardly mentioned.

Led Zep - John Paul Jones. An even more competent bass player and part of one of rock's all time great rhythm sections.

Black Sabbath - Geezer Butler. A key factor in Black Sabbath's genre-defining sound and a very talented musician.


GUITAR:

Beatles - John Lennon and George Harrison. Harrison was a pretty decent guitarist, and probably the best out-and-out musician in the band. Lennon however was only a passable guitarist, with no particular flair.

Led Zep - Jimmy Page. Quite simply one of the finest blues and rock guitarists around.

Black Sabbath - Tony Iommi. A guitarist who single-handedly invented a new style of rock music.

So as we can see, the Beatles were decent enough, but just not the musicians of legend that some would assume them to be.


===========
ORIGINALITY
===========

The Beatles - just one of a large number of 'beat' groups to emerge from the UK in the early to mid 1960s. Others included the Dave Clark Five and The Animals. Certainly, they were one of the best, probably the best of these groups (although the Animals were also excellent), but they weren't particularly original or unique.

Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath, on the other hand, were both unique. Zeppelin's heavy, guitar-driven sound was a real step forward for rock music. Black Sabbath went one further and created a completely new sound - they were the first true heavy metal band, and spawned the subgenre known as 'doom metal' single handedly.

The genius of the Beatles was not their technical skill. There were better technically better guitar players, drummers, and singers (the Beatles were charismatic singers, though) etc. I agree Robert Plant is a GREAT singer, but if we were to choose a great singer, there are plenty of even greater singers - Sam Cooke and Aretha Franklin for example.
I must admit though I am pretty passionate about Led Zeppelin - great singer, great lead guitar, great bass player, great drummer (the Who are in the same league for each of those categories). But the level of musical creativity is not in the same league. Sure Led Zeppelin et al were major innovators, but not like the Beatles, who innovated, innovated and innovated again and again.
The Beatles were in no way the same band at the end as when they started. The Beatles influence was far more reaching, touching all styles of popular music.

AEROSMITH -- can't believe you ignored them on both of your first two lists and haven't added them to your write in list either? Arguably one Steve Tyler has one of the greatest rock and roll voices ever and the band has been highly successful for decades...

Add them to the list or this whole thread is just a farce...

ps. B-52's? Seriously? Are we listing the most annoying, pointless bands of all time? Rock "on" Lobsters!

Even if Beatles/Stones is resolved... they still can't win. They're mere pop.

Metallica/Megadeth... oooooooh. That's just as fun a debate, but in a genre that requires technical skill.

And for the record... the Beatles early music was drivel. I never understood their popularity and still don't. They do have a few tolerable songs (Strawberry Fields, I am the Walrus, Here comes the sun, Lucy in the sky and possibly a few others) but for the most part its unsophisticated, one chord whining. I think their true success was in marketing and timing...

@President Eden: Metallica > Megadeth. Always.

@ President Eden: Megadeth every time. Mustaine's lyrics are more intelligent, and the guitar work is generally better too. Plus Dave Ellefson kicks the ass of every Metallica bassist after Cliff Burton's untimely death.

My favourite song lyric of all time is by Dave Mustaine, in fact:

"Whaddaya mean I don't support your system? I go to court when I have to!"

Tend to side with Megadeth, but I don't know that there's a clear-cut winner. I tend to divide the comparison up by time. The 1980s was Metallica all the way, with Burton around for most of the decade and a lot of their best songs coming out then.

But then 1990 hit. Specifically, Marty Friedman hit Megadeth and Rust in Peace hit the shelves. Metallica's self-titled album in '91 was good, but that's it... for a while. Meanwhile Megadeth follows it up with Countdown and Youthanasia, and doesn't out-and-out flop until Risk in 1999... at which point Metallica is already off writing for St. Anger.

Love that line, by the way.

With people having mentioned solo artists, I'm curious as to where people would rank Michael Jackson on their lists. He pretty much single-handedly transformed American Pop music and boasts 5 albums with over 20 million copies sold including the world's most popular album Thriller with over 110 million copies sold. That's well over double of the next highest. Not only that, he pretty much invented the modern music video with Beat It, Billie Jean, and Thriller. And come on, how many artists can claim that they got to produce and star in a Walt Disney World/Land attraction while working with George Lucas (Captain EO, created in 1986).

While he's not my favorite, although I like some of his mellow stuff from right after he became Michael Jackson and wasn't just the kid brother from the J5, and Thriller is just an awesome John Landis mini-movie, Jackson deserves to be ranked near the top on any solo artist list. But I also think Sting should be near the top of that list.

@CM
some real dross in your list, especially:
Journey
Boston
Chicago
Doobie Brothers
Poison
Heart
Tourniquet
Linkin Park

Please replace them with:
The Clash
U2
The Wailers
Dumpy's Rusty Nuts (you had to be there)
King Crimson (I was there about 10 years too late)
The Sex Pistols (just for the fuss)
The Rolling Stones (some of the time)

Oh, and if you still need one: Spinal Tap.

@CM: sorry, I must be cross eyed tonight: The Stones were in your list. My apologies.

U@ was also on the list as one of the write in, IIRC. And Journy, Boston, and the Doobie Brother's are respectable enough.

When I was young I would have said The Clash, The Sex Pistols or U2 are the best band ever but as I get shorter of breath and one day closer to death I think that Pink Floyd deserve the title. My first real exposure to the Floyd was The Wall; I was mystified when my father bought the album (1979) but when I saw the film (1982) it really hit me hard and I was hooked. The Wall and Dark Side of the Moon are two albums that I keep returning to.

BTW to break this rather anglo-american selection, try Tinariwen (especially the album Amassakoul).

*U2 and Journey

@Draugnar:
yes, U2 were on the write in list but I wanted to second/third/fouth/nth their inclusion.

Journey & Boston are MOR dross. The Doobie Brothers had some soul but "greatest band ever"? No.

@Jamiet: Metallica's riffs and solos are better, and is just heavier in general (save for Load and Reload) and if you don't think Metallica's lyrics are intelligent, read the lyrics to
Dyer's Eve, or any of the Unforgiven songs, (especially the third one, which in my opinion is the best song ever). Also, Metallica is the proud owner of the best album ever, Master of Puppets. Kirk Hammett and James Hetfield kick Mustaine's ass on guitar, and Mustaine's vocals don't even come close to Hetfield's (again, listen to The Unforgiven 3). And finally, for their first 3 albums, Metallica had the best bassist to ever grace the face of the Earth. So, in closing, Metallica kicks Megadeth's ass.

^Whoa, not so fast. You're basically pulling all the 1980s stuff. Metallica won the 80s. No one would argue against that. (Though Megadeth wasn't as far behind as you'd think.)

But what about the 90s? Friedman + Mustaine is clearly superior in guitar skill to Hammett + Hetfield. Ellefson whips Newsted. I don't have an opinion on drummers, I'm willing to give Ulrich the edge for his leadership, but not enough of an edge. Hetfield's singing is definitely better, but singing + drums <<< bass + guitar.

And look at "Call of Ktulu" and "The Four Horsemen." That's Mustaine's work, and happens to be among Metallica's most complex riffs. The guitar parts are generally even. But Friedman and Mustaine are definitely better in terms of actual skill.

And check out Rust in Peace. It's every bit MoP's equal.

@President Eden: The Unforgiven series is 90s to 00s, and they are better than any of Megadeth's songs. But you are correct, the rest is 80s. But if I remember correctly (I don't really listen to Megadeth much so I don't know for sure) they went to hard rock/heavy metal in the 90s too, so I'd consider the 90s a tie, and the 00s a tie also (Megadeth won the first half, Metallica the second). And I'd also like to mention that in general, I just like Metallica songs better. That's not something I can convince you of, it's just my personal tastes.

Pink Floyd
Depeche Mode
I think noone mentioned those two too.

You think wrong hellalt. Pink Floyd is on the list.

Are you serious?

You're taking OZZY OSBORNE over Lennon? Or McCartney? Or Lennon AND McCartney?

And Ringo gets a terrible rep, a lot of folks just see him as a joke...John ALSO once wrote Ringo "You really are the best drummer in the world," so take that against the earlier comment...

And with the Jesus/Beatles quip--John would say just about anything if he felt it was eitehr true or would make a goot witticism, wouldn't he? ;)

But really, look at the Beatles:

John, who I'd consider maybe the most intelligent rock star ever.
Paul, a great counterpoint for John while being one of the best on base/music writing in his own right.
George, who started slow and quietly but infused a lot of EAstern music and ideas into the group.

That's three HUGE egos.

And this is why the Beatles are the best ever, or rather, why they were able to become the best--they had all the talent...but all the personnel and personalities.

Because when you have three egos like THAT...you need a Ringo Starr.

You need the guy who'll take a back seat, take less of the glory, joke about, lighten the mood...Ringo was the glue of that group, case in point, when HE walked out, not only was that near the end (ie, when even RINGO is too pissed to play it's over) but all three members pleaded with him to come back, and were nice for a bit when he did, and after the Breakup, all three remained good friends with Ringo while sniping at each other, especially John and Paul and Paul and George.

And you describe the Beatles as "just one of many beat groups" in there era?

They are, were, and will be THE group.

But beyond that, they are the single most original and influential group in music history.

Thee's just so much for that I don't know WHERE you get that they're just a "beat group," unless you didn't listen to any music they played post-1963 or the quirky songs or what.

But looking at who you champion...you seem to favor heavy rock over the more classical and passion over...well, the Beatles had passion, too, so I really don't know where, again you fault them there...again, OZZY over John Lennon?

I'm curious, then:

Top 10 Songs period, and I'll throw away all the non-rock stuff I included before--

NOW what do you pick?

Because I'm still not only placing "Hey Jude at the top and "Imagine" on there (though that one is more in debate; however, I don't think you can challenge "Hey Jude," maybe try and say it's not #1, though I think it is, but it at least HAS to be Top 10) but I'd say "Let It Be," "Yesterday," "Strawberry Fields Forever," and "Revolution" would all challenge for a spot; not all of them, of course, would make it, but I'm betting most of you would see at least 2 of those 4 would be worthy...really, that's, in order, 1. One of the most famous and celebrated songs this side of the 1960s 2. THE most covered song in rock history 3. One of the first instances of backwards music and a flat-out artistically brilliant song, and 4. A song that not only fits its time perfectly and still can work today in terms of being a song you'd care about, but the beat it's a lot closer to that sort of heavier rock that your groups exhibited afterward...I'm not calling it heavy rock, not at all, jsut saying, that's maybe an ancestor--oh, and it's a good song, too.

And finally...

What OTHER band has not one but at least TWO fun, critically acclaimed and famous movies in "A Hard Day's Night" and, again, one I'd rank in the Top 10 Animated films, "Yellow Submarine." Finally, note in both of these moveis RINGO gets a LOT of attention and screne time and famous lines...another example of not only Ringo's talent and contributions to the group (they don't transition to film half as well or beyond a one-shot flick without Ringo and, eventually, John being such good comedians onscreen) but the fact that the Beatles simply were the best...because just like a Swiss army knife has a tool for every situation, it seemed like the Beatles had a Beatle to star and take the lead for the rest in any situation and lead them to greatness (except when it came to women...)

^tl;dr: Beatles + circular logic (media hypes them and says they're good to justify their own hype machine) >>>>>

@CM: ...we might as well stop if you think that the Unforgiven series >>> all Megadeth's songs. I think it's clear that isn't true, but...

"See, back in my day men wree men and they made rock and roll music...I don't know what they do now, dance around with little hats, apparently..." -Craig Ferguson on Justin Timberlake.

+100 Craig! ;)

And I'm not saying the Bealtes are good because of their hype, rather that they have so much hype around them that the amazing thing is that they DO, in my opinion, justify that aura...I've already given all the technical and artistic reasons I think their music is the Best of the 20th Century, so no, no circular logic, at least none intended.

Agalloch

/thread

@Eden: Well, Unforgiven 3 is better than any Megadeth song (as well as Dyer's Eve); I'm sure Megadeth has a few that are better than the other Unforgivens. But as I said before, I just have more of a taste for Metallica than Megadeth.

@CM: Check out "A Tout Le Monde." Here, I'll link the 2007 version with Cristina Scabbia (<3 <3 <3) singing alongside Mustaine. (Mustaine's vocals actually DON'T suck in this one!) The guitars are slick as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xn01nSG4cvU

@obi: I was kidding. =P