Orathaic, but what do you think?

@bo, I would like to have that conversation.

I think that people who arrogantly claim they are theist/atheist tend to identify strongly with their beliefs, and thus contradictory evidence will be seen as a personal attack. Their psychological defence mechanism will kick in and they will disregard any evidence for such an attack. Conversations between the two will go nowhere while both sides are ignoring what the other is saying (even conversations between two different kinds of christian may go this way...)

I think this is a healthy thing most of the time, i've known people with border-line personality disorder, where the suggestion that their views are wrong can lead them into a personal spiral of changing beliefs (whether about themselves or about their place in the world(.

Unfortunately this can be blinding. It means your religion is likely determined by the location of your birth. And if christianity is 'right' then your god sends millions upon millions to hell just for being born in the wrong place.

Which is both infinitely cruel, and abhorrent to my sense of morality. But you do you!

"if christianity is 'right' then your god sends millions upon millions to hell just for being born in the wrong place"

What do you mean by "right?" I am Christian and I don't believe this. Furthermore, most of the Christians I know do not believe this (though some definitely do).

Of course, aorathaic, some of us interpret statements as an attack because they are in fact attacks and we are under constant threat. Keep in mind that in the US, atheists and secularists are a despised and denigrated minority who have to defend their liberty from constant attack largely by Christians who are always wanting to use violence and state power to bend everyone else to their beliefs. Unless you're an atheist, you don't really have any notion of how much Christian Suremacy is a constant and dominant threat.

Of course the reverse is true

"Christian groups, ie people who specifically decide to gather in groups based around their common creed, tend to be populated by self-righteous assholes who think they are better than atheists."

@Orathaic: Do you think all atheists are "arrogant"?

You two have just done a fabulous job at proving his point.

I see, so Bo is going to resort to false equivalency to deny that there are genuine issues. Typical

What, Bo? What did I say that was arrogant?

I don't think that the reverse is as strong as the original. Simply because the reason that people of faith gather is to celebrate what they believe, not denigrate another's belief.

For instance, I wouldn't consider the members of the Chess Club as pompous assholes. However, the members of the Anti-Chess club probably are. This is not to imply that all atheistic groups are formed for the intention of going against something. It could be merely a group of like-minded people who want to interact with each other. But if there intention is specifically to be "anti-_____" I think it is most likely made up of pompous assholes.

How do you then explain selfless actions?
What you're describing is the philosophical theory known as Psychological Egoism, which has the upshot that altruism is not morally required. The main issue is the assumption that we're all really selfish bastards. We have numerous examples of those willing to sacrifice themselves for something or someone else. For one, in most cases suicide is not an act of self-interest, as survivors of jumping off of the Golden Gate Bridge can tell you. Secondly, we have examples of soldiers who have jumped on grenades to save their comrades, or parents who have starved themselves for the benefit of their children. While one can try to explain these actions as self-interested, they're just not. Thus, Psychological Egoism is false, due to the existence of altruism in our world.
Don't worry ubercatcher, there's still a possibility for you: Ethical Egoism, which takes the attitude that whatever furthers your best interest is ethical, and whatever doesn't, isn't. So that means the soldier who puts his life in jeopardy to save a comrade is acting immorally, but you can still say people should be self-interested.

@KingCyrus: Most atheists are not part of any "atheistic group". I'm a necessary atheist for example (as explained). I don't go to atheist meetings or gather with other atheists to sing atheist songs...

Let's see, do 60% of Americans say they could never vote for a Christian for office? No
Do atheists try to turn whole groups of people into second class citizens because their existence is "against atheism"? Take their kids away? Incite violence against them?
No

Do atheists try to pass laws requiring all people to follow their beliefs and try to enslave women? Not so much.

Sure, when you're not being derided as inhuman or ammoral (yes, I've encountered both personally) then it's easy to dismiss.


When that stuff happens, let me know.

Actually @aking Cyrus, that's just a giant wave of stereotype. Certainly atheists celebrate that relief but since you've never spent time in such a group, you just rely on your bias


There is a lot to be celebrated about not being caught in the grip of delusion.

Oh, and Christians don't gather to be anti anything? Really? That'd be great news to the LGBTQ Community!

Christians not anti? Trump has explicitly tried to ban Muslims from entering the United States. MILLIONS of Christians vehemently support this policy.

Wake up.

Do you all have me muted?

At least atheists rely on evidence rather than interpreted bronze age mythology.

"Christians not anti? Trump has explicitly tried to ban Muslims from entering the United States. MILLIONS of Christians vehemently support this policy."

Millions of non-Christians supported this policy too. I think that implying the anti-Muslim sentiment in the U.S. is Christian led is quite a leap.

It's worth someone mentioning that most atheists are not part of any "atheistic group". They don't go to atheist meetings or gather with other atheists to sing atheist songs. I'm surprised no-one's said this yet.

@Ogion

You seem to forget that Atheists in the past have indeed passed laws making Theists second class citizens. They have imprisoned them, forcibly re-educated them, and indeed moved their populations entirely in some cases. The USSR and PRC aren't that far in the past that they're forgotten already, are they?

Freedom of Worship is far older than Freedom of Speech, and far more important. There's extremes of all religions, and extremists in the lack of it entirely.

@Octavious - that's a really interesting point! I hadn't thought of that!

Thank you, Jamie. Sometimes I impress even myself.

"Millions of non-Christians supported this policy too. I think that implying the anti-Muslim sentiment in the U.S. is Christian led is quite a leap."

71% of Americans identify as Christian. It's not a leap at all.

Oh. Well, if you are using that as reasoning I can safely say that MILLIONS of Christians vehemently opposed Trump's policy.

@HR: "You seem to forget that Atheists in the past have indeed passed laws making Theists second class citizens."

You're kidding right? Considering this a legitimate argument?

Theists have done much, much worse to atheists over the millennia. There's a reason that "separation of church and state" is a good thing.

@TomBomb: You were the one who *inferred* that I was even going there. Trump's anti-Muslim rhetoric and policies come from deep-rooted bigotry triggered by violent terror.

Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand.

It's a perfectly legitimate argument. I'm a socialist, I have a strong dislike of organised religion. But extreme atheists have caused a lot of suffering and deaths, too. Because *extremism* is the problem. It's not a game of Top Trumps on who has the highest body count - Persecution is bad. Period. Buddhism is a pretty peaceful religion, and yet militant Buddhist extremists are currently leading the genocide against the Rohingya in Myanmar right now. Extremists of all religions exist. Extremist Atheists exist. And when these extremists get power, people die. No matter what denomination they are. No matter where they are. The problem is extremism.