Except, Prado, there aren't. There's very little to prevent extensive surveillance and suppression of the opposition. It's already being done on a very wide scale now, and can easily enough be ramped up. As the GOP takes over the judiciary, just what remedy do you see to prevent the construction of a surveillance one party state? If the US had learned the lessons of history, George W Bush would have been impeached and removed from office and Trump would never have won the nomination.

"There's very little to prevent extensive surveillance and suppression of the opposition."

That is not even 5 steps close to the end result you fear. There are some pretty big details between one and the other, and going the full way is something the current system protects against.

@Ogion

If the end result is fascist rule taking power away from the people, why aren't you FREAKING OUT about the EU?

"That's right, it can't happen here because it can't happen here."

I wonder what scare crow tastes like. I'm sure you could tell me because you've got a straw man in your mouth. I didn't say it's because it's here. I said it's because the relevant actors past and present have taken major steps in actively and explicitly prevent it from happening here.

Your ignorance and disdain of the American military is fueling your paranoia and promoting your fear mongering. You are cowardly children making up stories to promote your misguided understanding of this nation and it's constitutional institutions. Shame on you. Go back to your panic room and sip on your cocoa. Mommy will come in and change your dydies and tuck you in.

^ Now that's a good straw man!
See how Brad establishes the premise that anyone against him is ignorant and disdains the military? Automatically, they lack credibility. Then he deftly suggests that they are making up stories, almost like proclaiming it "fake news". His coup de grace is to drape himself with constitutional institutions -- that's pretty lofty -- in order to admonish the free thinkers. Nicely done, Brad -- Some of your best work!

Okay, except that the "free thinkers" lack the facts and information of the situation and literally are making shit up. That's how the thread got started.

@Prado, you'll be eating crow soon enough. But please explain what steps the "relevant actor...present" have taken, because McConnell and Ryan have done nothing but slowroll and stonewall any progress.

@Prado, to attack an idea that is currently not under debate -- isn't that a straw man? Let's stick to the last 50 posts or so. (btw, as you might have noticed, my style is to try to create a provocative subject line to spur debate. Mission accomplished.)

McConnell and Ryan aren't relevant actors to the conversation that's happened in the latter half of this thread. Military officers and soldiers are. And KC has explained these sorts of methods with firsthand knowledge. If you want to go back to basics, then you're talking about a bully pulpit. Like what Wilson used. Except he got Congress to act how he wanted by threatening their reelection chances. Trump doesn't have the popularity to do that. If his vocal minority of supporters tried to keep Congress from getting a quorum in any fashion, it'd be essentially impossible.

No one has addressed what happens if the military is given "alternate facts" and then told to act. The military, with the best of intentions and the best analysis, might end up doing something harmful to the country if the facts they are given are untrue.

Are you saying they could be given false information about public laws and documents? Or are you saying they could be given false information about what they're supposed to be doing?

This will come out as being a fake story. Sad, how some people believe these lying media organizations.

I believe you have the wrong thread.

@Hauta

You seem to be assuming also that the military acts as a single homogenous being. **if I misconstrue you at all let me know, but I'm trying to understand your argument and I think this is a key point** at the end of the day it's a bunch of individuals. Many voted for Hillary... besides, what has Trump done with the military that you despise?

He's handed power off to the generals, and his one major attack in Syria was applauded in this forum by more left leaning people

James, you remind me why I had you muted. You clearly understand very little about the EU. Trust me, the EU is hardly a fascist state. Ask Germans about that, they know the difference. One difference, facists shoot you for threads like this. Assad style

So it's not the American far- leftists trying to shut down free speech on campuses? And it's also not the EU that has UNELECTED officials creating law?

Actually, the point that the military isn't homogenous is kind of the point. Significant swathes of the military are highly suspect and the military has far from a perfect record of ignoring clearly illegal orders. Thus, I think those claiming the military will hold prefectly when the chips are down (or rise up to oppose a One party state, more critically) are fooling themselves that they really know

And I never said it WAS a fascist state: just closer to one than the USA is

It is the left shutting down hate speech. There is good reason for that. See Holmes, Oliver Wendell for more. Hiding behind "free speech" to endanger people is out of bounds. One has to commit to democratic principles first to avail oneself fully. And that isn't shutting down free speech but condemning hate speech. You scan say any asinine thing you want. You can't however say it without provoking a serious response, nor should you be able to

The EU may be closer to a socialist state than the United States, but Trump exhibits way more fascist tendencies in his personality, rhetoric, and actions than the EU.

Hell, the EU spends way too much time blathering on and on and Trump just does shit because he can and let's everyone else deal with the fallout.

And both you should drop the whole "unelected bureaucrat" stupidity. It makes you look like an ignoramus who doesn't understand how regulation works.

The EU is governed by a combination of ELECTED respresentative of elected governments and ELECTED members of the European Parliament. They make the laws and the bureaucrats (that is the experts) them craft appropriate rules as directed by elected officials, much as it works here in the US. In fact arguably there is less distance between Brussels and the people than between Washington and the people. In any event, regulations aren't taking power away from the people, they're the manifestation of the power of the people and act to free the people from oppression by corporations and bad actors. Somehow you forget that such people exist. I'm surprised you don't advocate for abolishing the police. After all they have a lot of power and aren't elected either so clearly they must be fascism incarnate.

@Ogion

As someone with an older brother in the Marines, and who knows personally more infantrymen that you have valid points, you really don't understand how much these guys beleive in the american people, more than even Trump. I mean seriously, one of the most ideology cried raising populists ever in this country, and I don't know one person in the military who'd ever kill simply because Trump pointed and said "shoot"

you're going to need better connections between a fascist military state, to our military with checks and balances within its own internal structure

Actually, not even close James. Europe is by many measures a freer society than the IS. Try getting and education, get the hell out of Iowa or whatever backwater you live in and go live in Europe before spouting out your bunghole. God you're such the arrogant American ignoramus. Honestly. Know nothing understand nothing and think your le a genius

Sure as long as the Americans are white and Christian.

And @Ogion they're not elected by everyone. It's officials from each country making rules for ALL countries. It's like if Ohio's governor makes rules for California: you wouldn't like it. That's why we ELECT federal officials for al of us, BY ALL OF US.

Also shutting down hate speech? Who decides what hate speech is? What? The left does? That's not convenient at all...

Feeedom obtained by forcefully taking from others, isn't a freedom worth having. At least most people in Europe like socialism, and most submit to it. Meanwhile you're OPENLY trying to force a population to socialize against our will

It if you mean FREE MARKET policies, like the Nordic countries: AGREED, the free market is BEAUTIFUL

The Nordic model is free markets producing wealth while keeping a strong nationalize healthcare system. They're still up and down on debt, but what's keeping them afloat is low regulations, freer markets