@Putin33 Why don't China and Russia simply persuade their neighbors to cooperate with them, like Canada and the US?

Russia did persuade Ukraine to cooperate with them, the result has been a western-instigated riot/insurrection. Haven't you been reading the news? Belarus cooperates with Russia, Belarus is constantly targeted for subversion.

And at any rate Central and Eastern Europe have much different histories than the US and Canada, not to mention the countries have different geopolitical vulnerabilities, and different resource needs, and are at different developmental levels.

Any more facile questions?

*Central Asia & Eastern Europe.

So it's like... American agents in all these countries creating popular unrest that would not otherwise exist? With what, mind control agents?

And yep, Central and Eastern Europe have much different histories, including totalitarian control centered in Moscow, which they don't care to repeat, which probably explains why Russia is now "surrounded" by NATO applicants. Russia is hardly threatened because it doesn't really make sense to have and "designs" on Russia as such. But if most of their neighbors wants to duck under the US umbrella, should the US say no, please stay in Russia's "sphere"?

Doesn't make sense to have designs on a massive country with huge mineral wealth which could be divided into a bunch of pro-western state-lets from which US corporations could exploit their resources at their leisure?

I'm done here. Your analysis is beyond fatuous.

Dumping of US products in Mexico.....Ahhhhhhhhh ha ha ha ha ha!!!! Oh, THAT is fucking hillarious!!! Ah yes.....once again, the idiot speaks.

Yes....so once again Americans are getting rich by stealing the vast wealth of the poor....in this case, we are apparently...what...producing products in American factories to dump them on people that make $12/week.....god, I can't even figure out how this one is supposed to work

Putin, you are, without a doubt, THE MOST moronic person floating around these forums....

Keep it up, fucktard...keeps me chuckling all night long laughing at your nonsense.

@Putin - I think Iraq would have been a major issue for elections had the USA not got involved.

As for my support of war....please demonstrate to me exactly where I have been an open advocate of all war is good war.

Nice try....not really....again, just demonstrated your complete and utter fucked up view of just about everything you express your ill-informed, deceitful opinion about.

You must truly be a miserable fuck Putin....it's no wonder everybody in the teacher's lounge laughs their collective asses off every time you leave the room. (Hint, they're laughing AT you...)

No. Heavily funding opportunists who want power and money, and if put in power by the West, will give them whatever they want. Agent provocateurs who instigate violence with Ukrainian authorities, knowing full well people like you will lap up whatever the press tells them about exotic and unknown Ukraine. Gene Sharp wrote a manual for the color revolutions, and these operatives were trained by US agents, yes.

But no, naturally covert operations and subversion don't exist. Keep living in your la-la land.

My analysis is great. Russia's neighbors want to join NATO because they don't want to repeat the twentieth-century experience of being controlled from Moscow.

Russia itself is hardly threatened because you can't take over a country with a god damn end-of-the-world nuclear capacity. I mean the US gets steamrolled by little OPEC's nationalized oil supplies, you think it's going to threaten Russia? Give me a break.

Putty....what color is the sky in your fantasy world, anyway?

Oh...wait...you never see the sky, do you, hidden as you are in your closet with your little kiddies..YOU and mapleleaf, that is...

"Russia's neighbors want to join NATO because they don't want to repeat the twentieth-century experience of being controlled from Moscow. "
Exactly, they want to be controlled from Washington instead now, silly Putin.

"...you can't take over a country with a god damn end-of-the-world nuclear capacity."
Easy, every country has a few dissidents willing to go to great lengths to make changes to the current government. Arm them to the teeth and set them loose. Nobody will launch nukes at their own country, and nobody will launch nukes as the first response if such interference is detected. And yes, USA does have these people too. You call them "terrorists".

@ddst - Tendmote said your first quote, not Putin33.

^I know. The internet obviously did not capture the sarcasm very well.

Ah! You were comparing him to SillyPutty. Gotcha!

Well, if you need me to explain it, then obviously it has gone awry, but the intent was that I was sarcastically agreeing with his comment that was responding to Putin, followed by a comment that was "supporting" the condescending nature of his post that was implicitly suggesting that Putin was not grasping the basics of the situation, AKA silly.

I suspect the issue may have occurred because I took a more serious approach to the second quote, creating a bit of misdirection in the tone of the first.

"Agent provocateurs who instigate violence with Ukrainian authorities"

i'm sorry, you're adding unnecessary extras to this story. Ukraine is split hugely between pro-EU and pro-Russian populations; There is a vague geographic split based on the East/West of Ukraine, and probably also a language split, with the majority of the pro-Russian camp speaking Russian as their mother tongue.

This kind of unrest doesn't require agent provocateurs, infact the cancelled trade agreements with the EU were probably enough to annoy that part of the population which doesn't like Russia... The government responce didn't really help. (BUT IF MIGHT IS RIGHT, then sure both sides are right, because how else can we determine who is the most migthy?)

Yeah, it was a bit of a non-sequitur.

And that explanation was clear as a mudslide, but the mudslide at least tastes good.

No I am not adding extras. Vitali Klitscko, one of the leaders of the protests, got sprayed in the face by his own side for calling for a truce and for non-violence.

"The government responce didn't really help."

The government should just sit back and let its capital get ransacked.

@Putin33 There are plenty of people who don't consider trade agreements to be "capital getting ransacked."

@Putin33 And at any rate why would some guy getting "sprayed in the face" mean that the country wasn't hugely divided?

"There are plenty of people who don't consider trade agreements to be "capital getting ransacked.""

I'm not talking about the agreement, I'm talking about the petulant insurrection that followed.

Why do you ask questions that have nothing at all to do with the points I'm raising, and raise them as if they do?

""sprayed in the face" mean that the country wasn't hugely divided?"

I never said any such thing. I said there were agent provocateurs. Just because political divisions exist doesn't mean that the so-called Galician Ukrainians want to cause a riot and destroy their country over an EU trade deal.

@Putin33 I couldn't figure out the point you were making. You mentioned "agent provocateurs". Orathaic made the point that the country is hugely divided on opinion and that it wasn't necessary to attribute the pro-Russia/pro-EU split to "agent provocateurs". You then pointed out "agent provocateurs" again... and yes, there are assholes in every crowd... but that's all a minor sideshow. If "agent provocateurs" have nothing to do with your points then why do you keep re-introducing it into the conversation and then making an issue when I ask what your getting at?

And anyway you're the one who introduced Ukraine and "agent provocateurs" into the conversation. My point was simply that Russia's neighbors had been subjugated to totalitarian rule from Moscow for most of the 20th century, which makes them more likely to want to duck under the NATO umbrella of their own accord, rather than some American mind control experiment to encircle and antagonize a country with end-of-the-world-nuclear-strike capability.

@Putin33 Furthermore you have yet again introduced an ambiguity, and criticized people for not understanding you rather than acknowledging the ambiguity. "Ransacking their capital" and "ransacking their capitol" are different things; the first thing is what you said, the second thing is what I think you're now indicating you meant. You did the same thing with the "color as a property" discussion, not acknowledging the ambiguity of the original statement and then taking a hard line on your own interpretation. It isn't fair or even interesting to end up in these hairsplitting debates when you bring such imprecision into what you introduce.

Putin33 thinks every uprising against a government he supports can only be CIA astroturfing. Drawn out discussions with him on the topic are a waste of time.

Tendmote you deliberately try to confuse everything and then claim I am being imprecise.

Orathaic claimed that the insurrection could be attributed to this so-called division within Ukraine alone or the EU trade deal, and seemed to deny that agent provocateurs were at work trying to instigate violence and ignite a full scale revolt in order to bring down the government by extra-constitutional means, much like the Orange revolt. I responded, and you deliberately confused the issue in order to deflect from that response. There *are* agent provocateurs at work, which is evident by the fact that the protest leaders who call for restraint are being attacked. Address that point and stop trying to confuse the issue. This isn't imprecision, this is your total lack of willingness to address an argument honestly. Are you physically capable of having a conversation without willfully distorting what I say?

"My point was simply that Russia's neighbors had been subjugated to totalitarian rule from Moscow for most of the 20th century, which makes them more likely to want to duck under the NATO umbrella of their own accord, rather than some American mind control experiment"

You exaggerate anti-Russian feelings in Ukraine while poo-pooing American intervention and meddling which is well documented throughout the CIS. It's not mind control, as I already spoke about and which you happily ignored, as per usual.

""Ransacking their capital" and "ransacking their capitol"

No, I meant what I said. Orathaic seemed to think the government behaved improperly in its handling of the insurrection. I responded by sarcastically suggesting that the government should just let its *capitAl city* get ransacked. You once again inject yourself to sow confusion and distort my comments, suggesting I'm claiming that the trade deal was the capital getting ransacked.

Just admit you were wrong here, for once, and completely misread everything I wrote.