@ Yellowjacket - not necessarily. I'm not saying YOU have to bed a transgenedered person and feel no different about it from anyone else you're a horrible bigot and deserve to be hanged. I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is this. Imagine a situation where you meet someone you really really really really like in every way. Would finding out that person is transgendered in and of itself be enough to completely turn you off, to the extent that you would never ever consider the possibility of anything happening between you? Because if so, I think you seriously, seriously, seriously need to consider the possibility you have some kind of prejudice against transgendered people, one might even go so far as to say, some kind of negative feeling about transgendered people. I don't know what else to classify that as besides transphobia or cissexism. (bearing in mind that in the context of prejudice, oppression and identity politics "-phobia" has a different meaning from like arachnophobia).

I've already acknowledged the prejudice, and disputed the -phobia.

We've been talking for quite a while now, and I challenge you to find any support whatsoever for your claim that I may be biased by any kind of negative feeling toward transgendered people.

I would say, however, that you have demonstrated a pretty clear bias against hetero men. Your inability to see that many people in this world simply do not see trans women as the same as women is a major failing in your argument (mainly because they simply are NOT the same). I have not asked that you share our belief, merely that you respect our right to it.

"people in this world simply do not see trans women as the same as women" - THAT IS THE DEFINITION OF TRANSPHOBIA. PERIOD. THAT IS WHAT TRANSPHOBIA IS. HOLY FUCKING SHIT. WHY DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THIS.

Actually that was unwise. You have demonstrated that you are incapable of grasping the idea that a word or in this case a suffix (-phobia) can have different meanings in different contexts. So for the sake of clarity in communication, I'll switch to the term cissexism, which I think is a good term for describing anti-trans prejudice, which you have admitted to. And I'm sorry, but I'm not down with the argument that I need to respect differing views that are prejudicial or bigoted.

You don't get to redefine terms to suit your argument, and you have not provided any sort of definition of transphobia to support this.

You can call my statement any sort of -phobia / -ism / -ist all you like, but it doesn't make it any less true. Trans women are not the same as women.

but yeah, we're done... my threshold for outbursts has passed its limit.

How has Mafialligator demonstrated a bias against hetero men at all? "Hetero man" != "person who has a problem with sex with a transwoman".

You may not have a problem with transgendered people, but you're at least considering them to be not really their preferred gender. That pretty much is a direct opposition to the core of what being transgendered /is/. A transwoman is a woman, a transman is a man. There are currently some physical limitations that can't be entirely overcome, but unless those specific physical limitations are what you're opposed to (and we've established that we're discussing this under the assumption that the person is attractive to you physically and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference if you weren't told, so that should be irrelevant), well... as I said. A transwoman is a woman, a transman is a man. You're making transpeople second-class members of their gender. THIS IS A PROBLEM.

Also, being "a woman" - as many woman can tell you - is different in much more ways than just your sexual features. For example, a woman's brain develops in a slightly different fashion than a man's brain. And that's just one example of many.
And YJ, people loosen up when their drunk and say stuff they wouldn't say normally. If you really want to be sure on your next date be sure to have some unpretentious wine ready lol

^many women
^they're drunk

YOU DONT KNOW SHIT ABOUT UNPRETENTIOUS WINE IT EATS YOUR BRAIN ALIVE UP THERE DONT FUCK WITH ME

lol others.

Sorry KoF I'm done for real - maybe another time, OK?

'If I knew, it would be a deal breaker, in the same sort of way finding out someone was married would be a deal breaker.'

- but would the onus not be upon you to ask whether she was/had been married?

As for the XX/XY chromosomal arguement - my cousin is XXY, as born, it's a pretty rare condition. He's had some gender identity issues. How should he present himself to potential sexual partners? I mean he was born XXY, he has whatever sexual organs and functions he happens to have... Is it immoral for him to NOT tell potential sexual partners before hand that he was born with a triple chromosome???

'Wait a second, you are saying that reserving the right to decide for myself whether I want to be with a transwoman makes me a transphobic person?'

You still have the right to decide whether to be with the person, they just happen to present to you as female, and you accept that they are female without questioning it - is this deception? No they are female in gender.

I thought about this more, last night.

I came to the conclusion that I really can't stop people from doing as they please on this issue, nor would I try to if I could. I can only try to convince them of what many many people on this world would prefer they do if they wish to consider us as sexual partners.

All trans people must let there own morality decide what is the right thing to do, but I don't think they should be surprised at some of the reactions they get if somebody finds out after the (f)act.

@YJ, so you don't conclude that a MtF should be considered a woman, and thus when she portrays herself as such that she should not be considered a lier?

Because i think this is the very essence of pushing against the cissexism which the article opposed.

Ora, I've made pages already on this topic, and really don't feel like taking up the gauntlet again today. I've just said that the only restriction I'd want to place is your own morality, and if that isn't good enough for you at this point I'd say you're just looking to paint me as the bad guy.

"I've just said that the only restriction I'd want to place is your own morality"

Ok, so if a person thinks they are female, and presents themselves as such, this is, by their own morality, Wrong or OK?

orathaic what would you answer to this question yourself:
so you don't conclude that a MtF should be considered a woman, and thus when she portrays herself as such that she should not be considered a lier?

That's pretty easy, RH. I think that YJ said, people should use their own morality to decide whether to disclose.

I think the whole question here is whether we 'should' consider a MtF to be woman...

The XX/XY comments made in this thread make it clear that some people think chromosomes define sex and gender, whereas i'm pretty sure society would base gender more on behaviour, and sex on body... never minding that this remains a simplification of the non-binary nature of our chromosomes.

Not everyone is born with either male/female genitalia, they are usually assigned at birth - ostensibly to make them 'fit in' - is that so society doesn't have to accept there is more than just the binary simplification, or is it to make the child's life less stressful??

Does the reality of variation in humans not belie the homo/hetero stereotype - you can be attracted to many people and there will be variation within that set, some of them may have XY chromosomes (but also androgen insensitivity syndrome) - you are attracted to what you are attracted to, and choose to have sex with whomever you choose to have sex with? What difference does birth assignment have to do with it?

-----

Oh, and for females, born XY but not sensitive to testosterone (ie androgen insensitivity syndrome) so she developed both physically and mentally as female - though without ovaries, internal testicals instead... thus at puberty she will not begin to menstruate or become fertile... Should they tell potential partners before they first have sex??

No, I'm not going to do this with you. We both want the same thing (a broader acceptance of transsexuals among the hetero community). I feel that your way of going about it is going to cause more harm than good. You apparently do not.

But your insistence on continuing the fight at this point can only possibly be to drive home the conclusion that I consider transsexuals to be inferior. I'm not going to play it with you, man.

"I think that YJ said, people should use their own morality to decide whether to disclose."

That is NOT what I said. I said "must," not "should." Meaning "will." You cannot treat that as anything approaching approval, only acceptance of reality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPw-3e_pzqU

Damn you orathaic

Well if a transsexual has the moral liberty to tell me that "he" is a woman, then I have the moral liberty to tell him that "he" is a liar, right?

I don't think that you're a bad guy at least, YJ. You have a sexual preference that I think can be insulting to people, but it's a sexual preference, you have a right to it, and it won't change based on arguments. Sexual preference is tied up with some of the most primal emotions we have, it's rooted deep in the psyche and identity, incredibly complex and banal at the same time. Of course it's possible to rationally accept trans-gendered people and treat them well in society, and still discriminate in the bedroom.

I think that the most important thing is to educate children in non-binary gender issues and complex sexual questions, instead of letting them go through their pubescent sexual development with the traditional narrow view. I'm not saying you should try to talk your children into gender-bending and bisexual behaviour, but for Christ's sake, tell them that these things exist and tell them that sex is complex and baffling and beautiful.

A big +1 to all of that, Vaft. I think you hit about 20 nails on the head, there.

"Mum said sex is complex and baffling and beautiful"

WTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

@Vaftrudner, I don't entirely agree.

I have someone in my family who has lots of brothers and sisters. All of the brothers were always fighting each other, doing bad stuff etc., except for one, who played with dolls and hung around with his mum. He's been living happily with his male partner for many many years now. Point is, everybody made fun of him, but it just wasn't really an issue. He was born a little differently and I don't think the "educate children .... baffling and beautiful" approach would have helped him or changed things in any way.

haha children are actually very receptive to sex talk, much more so than adolescents and teens, Gobble.

Maybe if we were to educate them earlier they would be more likely to see transwomen as the same as women? I don't know. What I DO know is that more education earlier always helps everything. Maybe if presented at a young age with the actual factual differences between MTF and F they would not feel that they require a disclosure.

oh come on redhouse, maybe not change things in that family, but if you educated all the redneck assholes that poor kid probably had to deal with in his childhood, he would have had an easier time of it.