No, you have not, but please read Geo's comments above.

"After reviewing the evidence, the mods have determined that there was no illicit activity in this game."

This is more-or-less the same phrase I've used for the last 10 months. I think it's very similar to what Geo wrote. To people really find that insufficient?

@Zultar

Yes, as I said, I think Geo was just annoyed at Lando's public reaction after he gave two of Lando's cases very high priority.

Well, since you ask, I do think it's a little strong. Courts (and mods) should stick to whether guilt has been proven. Proving innocence is beyond our (or your) abilities.
So, you just don't _know of_, or can't detect, illicit activities in the game.

I guess that's why I'm not a lawyer then : )

In my experience, I've found once a player thinks someone is cheating, it's very hard to convince them otherwise. That is why I think it's important that the mods make it very clear that they are innocent. Saying there isn't enough evidence to prove someone is guilty is much too wishy-washy to untaint someone's reputation, imho.

I'm sure that the mods do a good job in catching cheaters. However, this site does have a problem with cheaters and looking through my past games I can see many of my games involved people who are now banned.

I don't think the answer is for the mods to be better at detecting cheating as it's just impossible. Anyone can sign up for a couple of accounts and join a game and you may only find out half way through the game that they are cheating. If they were clever about it, it would take longer than one game and it might be a long time before anyone realised.

I think a better solution is to have more restrictions on joining games. At the moment people can password games and get people that they think might be reliable. I think more reliability restrictions might be good in setting up games. e.g. played at least X games or have at least Y points (without having to bet all those points) and also less then Z% NMRs which is another problem.

I recently started playing here again and out of the 7 games I have played 2 had players banned, 2 were cancelled because 2 countries NMRed in turn 1 and another had an NMR in the first year. I'm trying to get into some better games, but the overall quality of games is not great.

I think there's a bit of a logical inconsistency here.
Unless the accusations are made publicly -which they should not be, then no one but the accuser would know the accused, and so the issue of reputation is not at all relevant.

I think if someone is persistent about accusations and has pointed specific moves/games, then isn't it better to give that person some sort of explanation? It does not have to reveal the extent of the things you look at such as log in times, IP addresses, communications between the players, and whatever else.
The secondary issue is that if the cheaters -decided by the mods- won the game or got into part of the draw, can we cancel those games from this point forward? There are too many past games to consider and too much work to do, so throw out the retroactive stuff.

"isn't it better to give that person some sort of explanation?"

I honestly don't know what sort of explanation we could give them other than "we looked into it and determined they weren't cheating." What else could we say?

"can we cancel those games from this point forward? "

This is a large policy change that isn't going to be decided quickly. It still adds a lot of extra work for the mods. There are also some details that need to be worked over. Should a game be cancelled even if an innocent person participated in the draw? Finally, on the very rare occasions the mods ban someone by mistake, cancelling their games would be an absolute disaster.

"I honestly don't know what sort of explanation we could give them other than "we looked into it and determined they weren't cheating."
Honestly, I don't know either.

I don't think we should decide it quickly either, but I think we should talk about it if it is a sensible policy.
On a more detail-oriented side, instead of canceling a game, can we nullify its result without erasing its existence?
Is there an argument for not canceling/nullifying a game where a cheater wins and not draws?

@abgemacht - I didn't say the mods were paid, but face it. This membership has now provided the funds for 2 or 3 years of dedicated hosting. That's a rather large chunkl of change. So to ask for a little more professionalism in the mods communication versus feeling like we were blown off isn't asking much. It's not what you say, but how you say it. And every mod here is a decent player as well and part of this community. They should be able to apply the same skills they use in game as a mod.

@Geofram - We aren't asking for transparency. I don't care if you consult a magic 8 ball. Just a little respect when you respond, especially if (as I'm sure the case usually is) you intend to keep an eye on the situation. It's simple really. No "No cheating here!" Instead say "No cheating here that we can tell, but we'll keep an eye on things just in case." It comes down to respect. I respect you all as mods (although I like to poke y'all with sticks sometimes for fun), so when you are doing your job, a little respect back would go a long way.

"On a more detail-oriented side, instead of canceling a game, can we nullify its result without erasing its existence?"

Of course, with the proper code changes.


"Is there an argument for not canceling/nullifying a game where a cheater wins and not draws?"

Other than the additional work, not really. By cheater do you mean multiaccounts only, or also metagamers?

@Draug

I agree that the mods should be professional. Both because it's in the rules and because it's the right thing to do. I don't think how many donations the site gets has anything to do with it. Donations are to keep the site running as-is (or to upgrade the server). You are not paying a membership fee with disclosed benefits.

The mods are volunteers and if Kestas is using this site to support himself or if he's paying out of pocket to keep it running doesn't really affect my performance as a mod.

@Geofram - One more thing... Get some fucking meds dude. You are acting worse than I did when my levothyroxin and my blood sugar were fucked up. Get off your high horse. This is now a member supported site and not the free hobby site it once was. Your attitude sucks, dude. You aren't better than us just because you were chosen to be a mod. Look to abgemacht and fortknox to see how a mod should act. Cause you sure as fuck have an attitude problem.

I agree with Draugnar here, and he did not even mouth off like he usually does.

Never mind, my comment came before his last comment.

@abge,
Regarding the code change, I have no opinion there. No idea if it's hard or easy, but if it's doable, it seems reasonable.
Regarding cheaters, I mean both multis and metas.

Sorry zultar, but Geo has been doing this for weeks now. He has an air of authority of late that needs to get trampled under foot. fortknox, abgemacht, and the others all have more respect for us as players. Geofram has none any more. So, yeha, I hit him with the fuck stuck to try and knock some sens into him. It won't work, I know, but I had to try.

@zultar

Cancelling metagamers opens a whole different can of worms. I honestly don't even want to get into it it would be such a mess to sort out. We have a hard enough time just deciding on punishments for metagamers. To try to decide if their games should also be canceled would be a nightmare.

A problem I see with moderators being completely honest with people filing complaints is that people leak information. Just because that information is said between two people, doesnt mean the entire site wouldnt have the potential to know about it within days. Friends tell their close friends, who have other close friends, who tell somebody they wrongly trust and now everybody knows.

I think the mods do the best they can with what they're provided. I do however think a better answer could be provided as opposed to, "There is no evidence to suspect foul play." There's always evidence in any case, its just a matter of how well it convinces.

As I said earlier, I think a more appropriate response would be something along the lines of, "Your concern will be investigated." That doesnt state a bias to one side or the other, and it confirms to the player that the moderators have their backs. If a player were to then follow that inquiry up with a question like, "What did you guys find?". I think the proper response to that would be, "All case investigations are kept confidential. If we find reasonable grounds for a banning, it will be done."

While both statements are trying to say the same thing, one sends a different message than the other, and makes the player feel like he isnt protected in my opinion. I could be wrong, but I feel like the response I listed confirms that the investigation took place, and also assures to the player if something is found out of place, it will be taken care of. Even though we know the mods have our best interests in mind, when a person of authority doesnt express himself correctly, it causes confusion among the community(this topic).

LOL! Especially when you guys usually give them a second chance and I think most of them come around. Right, abgemacht?

@Draug

You'd be shocked how many people on this site are reformed cheaters. You only hear about the few who go back to cheating.

@Jok3r

That may be the best solution. People may not like it, but revealing nothing about the case may be the best way to handle it.

@Geofram, come on, don't you know one of the main jobs of the mod is to deal with all us whiny bastards when we feel neglected or sad? Please no harsh tones, members like Draug and Lando have delicate feelings.
@zultar, LOL you could not have timed that better.

@abge,

Then never mind on the metas.

@abgemacht - Technically I'm one considering the "Pause is not a diplomatic tool" rule was instituted because I and another player got a draw when the thrid should have gotten a win. So I probably wouldn't be all that surprised. You aren't really playing unless you push the boundaries and only when you go over them but didn't know can you step back across the line.

Thats the position of a moderator though. You act in the fairest way regardless of popularity and in the best interests of the site as a whole.

I think the current way its being handled in regards to us finding out if cheating took place is correct. As to my knowledge, the only way we currently find out is if we see the name somewhere and its banned.

Yes, and if the mods here had control issues like most other internet sites, you and many, many other people would have been banned a long time ago.

I much prefer our style of modding, which is why I've stayed here so long. I've been banned from more sites by cheeto-stained, basement-living control freaks than I can count. Yes, sometimes your games get ruined by cheaters and cases sometimes take forever to get resolved, but I think it's a fair price to pay for mutual respect between the mods and the community.

Yeah, the mechanics is perfect. We finbd out when someone gets banned and if something else occurs, well we only find out if that player brags about their points punishment, like Diplotool33.

"Thats the position of a moderator though. You act in the fairest way regardless of popularity and in the best interests of the site as a whole."

Actually, I try to do whatever will make me the most popular mod : )

Well, give everyone who donated money some extra points! You know, 5000 for gold, 2500 for silver, 1000 for bronze...