How can Jesus be divine when he sleeps and, with respect, poops....... doesn't make sense.

What's more Jesus never said "I am God, worship me". He said soemthing more along the lines I am the savior/teacher/prophet, so FOLLOW me.

Moses said the same to his people, so did Noah, Abraham, even Mohammad...

Mhmm.. You accuse me of having emotional roots.

And the rational world is based in natural law. You know.. shit that works, like physics. :)

By definition, the supernatural is beyond natural law. Therefore, there is no difference to me between your belief in Jesus, and a Muslim's belief in Allah. Or a Hindu's beliefs, or a Jainist, or a Vodun, or any suchlike.

You assume I've never given the idea any consideration. The amusing thing is, you really think that I haven't heard the same semi-trite "He's waiting for you" from many others. :)

I didn't know that the divine spirit while in a earth bound mortal body needing sleep, sustenance, and defincation made the spirit any less divine. Epic fail, rollerfiend.

@Jack - I hope you aren't lumping us all in with Mujus' attempts to convert you. I'm just here to have an interesting discussion.

And its not only that I haven't personally seen it... I haven't had any verifiable proof of supernatural activity... that is why they call it supernatural. So your God is in the same category as grey aliens and the Ghost Hunters?

I was raised really religous. I am an agnostic atheist. It's a bit sad that faith is considered a virtue, after all it is just the rejection of the nessecisty of evidence. Didn't we all take first grade science? It's pretty elementary. Religion is just trying to be certain about things that are uncertain. And personally being too certain is what drives many of the bad things in this world like war, one side is always certain that they have something to gain...

And what, denis, undergirds your confidence in evidence itself? Certainly evidence cannot -- that would be circular (see Hume). So "it works" is not an argument. It might stop working tomorrow. Why do you believe evidence is a good way of finding truth in the first place?
I'm not saying it's not, by the way; quite the contrary. But why do YOU think it is?

Haaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!! Jack says, "You accuse me of having emotional roots" What are you? Some sort of fucking Vulcan????

Ahhhh ha ha ha ha!!!! You STUPID JACKASS!!! If you have EMOTIONS, then they are as a result of the EVOLUTIONARY PROCESS THAT YOU WORSHIP!!!!

Dismissing your (admittedly idiotic) emotions is simply to deny your improved self over the single-celled vultures that will eventually consume your hell-bound body!!!!

Ahhhhhhh ha ha ha ha ha!

That's too funny.....I need a drink. A stiff, cold drink...so I can laugh at Jack some more.

Oh no, Draugnar. Like I've intimated before... your willingness to reject and accept parts that suit you actually means you're using your mind.

I just grow weary of religious people (and I do run into more Christians than anything else, so they tend to dominate my stories) thinking that I haven't heard the same tired lines before.

I almost want to pick a fight with a Jesuit just so I'd get some new ideas. (And I'd get crushed... they're better trained at logic than I am, from what I understand)

@semck, what are our five senses if not avenues for collection of evidence? If evidence was of no value, surely we would get along with no sensory evidence and only "faith" about where our food, mates, and predators, are. I'd like to see how those creatures fare.

Sure you could always argue that it *might* disappear tomorrow (what evidence do you have that it might :-) )... But is that anyway to run a life? Planning for that one supernatural moment that you've never experienced and don't have any evidence of rather than dealing with what is known and in front of you and reasonable to expect? In management, they call that managing by exception... and it's considered very poor management practice.

...I misstate a bit what managing by exception is... but I think you get the idea. Actually running a life based on faith that is contrary to evidence is even more flimsy than management by exception... because, at least in the case of management by exception, these exceptions do happen from time to time, as opposed to miracles (or other violations of physical laws) which, as far as we know, never ever happen

dexter, "Is that any way to run a life?" is not much of an argument for knowledge; obviously the same argument has been made many times by religious people for faith. The question is, do we have any reason to believe that evidence is reliable?
What evidence to I have that order could disappear tomorrow? Well, what evidence do I have that it won't, is a better question, and none, is the answer. Please see Hume's argument on induction. You say we should focus on what is "known and in front of me and reasonable to expect." The problem is, order is LESS reasonable to expect than disorder.
Why would it be reasonable to expect order? Because it's always been that way? Why does that mean that it will be that way tomorrow? Because it always has meant that? Well, why does that mean it will continue to mean it tomorrow?
Many have looked for a way out of that regress, but none exists.
You may ask why I say it's less reasonable to expect order than disorder. Simple: there are many, many (possible) universes which act ordered up to tomorrow and then misbehave in all kinds of crazy ways. Infinitely many, actually. There is only one that keeps acting ordered up through tomorrow. (This is not quite true, of course, but it works modulo some unimportant details).
Given that everything we've ever seen is consistent with ANY of these possible universes (since they were all, by definition, ordered up till tomorrow), nothing we've seen can act as evidence for preferring one to the other. So why do you believe in that one? How do you count that belief as knowledge?
As for managing by exception -- sure, if you ASSUME the universe will be regular tomorrow, then managing by exception is a poor idea. But it does remain an assumption, an a completely unjustified one.

Or you could just live life as a good person whether jewish or not and still reap eternal rewards...

The Question still is why do you worship Christ. Jews do not and will not worship a messiah when he come, they worship God who sends the messiah. If "the father" sent the son (which I believe is wrong because the trinity is supposedly co-eternal) then wouldn't preference go to the father rather than the "praise Jesus" default that you see in Christianity worldwide? Why isn't the father given the same prominence as Jesus, and if Jesus is god in another form, still why is jesus given that prominence. It doesn't make sense to me.

*that first part was in response to Mujus

@ draugner

Jesus, while in an earth bound mortal body needing sleep, sustenance, and defincation did supposedly walk on water, cure lepers, and do other miraculous things. God is suppose to be awesome, afterall we're suppose to worship him for Some reason or another no? Look up the definition of God if you need clarification on this. Back to the point that; what kind of God poops and falls asleep? Man of God, maybe, but God, the eternal creator of the universe, all powerful, all mighty..... I do not know

"Back to the point that; what kind of God poops and falls asleep? Man of God, maybe, but God, the eternal creator of the universe, all powerful, all mighty..... I do not know"

The Manichaens (sp.) agreed with you and said that Jesus was only a specter, because the flesh was evil and god was good, so therefore god could not inhabit flesh. But the catholics didnt like that much and persecuted the crap out of them

@ Santa- God's deal with the Jews was that if they followed all his commands perfectly, they would be saved. But even that message foreshadowed the fulfillment of the "new deal," such as when God revealed his name to Moses in the burning bush in Exodus 2 and 3. Look at the context and the characteristics that God tells Moses he has: I have seen/heard the cries of my people and have come down to deliver them. Emmanuel. God with us. Joshua--Yah saves.

@ roller & Santa - Jesus said "When you have seen me, you have seen the father," and "I and the father are one." He also said "I am the door" "I am the way, the truth, and the life" and "no man comes to the father but through me" and "this is my blood, shed for you" in the Passover supper. And more.

Re conversion - Hey, if you had your lights knocked out by the most amazing truth in the universe, wouldn't you want other people to know about it? :-)

"God's deal with the Jews was that if they followed all his commands perfectly, they would be saved"

That is completely wrong, God does not expect anyone to follow his commandments perfectly in Judaism

"Look at the context and the characteristics that God tells Moses he has: I have seen/heard the cries of my people and have come down to deliver them. Emmanuel. God with us. Joshua--Yah saves."

fits of all completely simplified and I dont even know what you are getting at, second, even if God did reveal (extremely) characteristics that christians later said Jesus had, you actually think his desciples whouldnt have had those in their minds as they crafted their false messiah.

"Re conversion - Hey, if you had your lights knocked out by the most amazing truth in the universe, wouldn't you want other people to know about it? :-)"

You mean a completely infantile truth that you only found because you had no idea where else to look...

We all have emotions--naturally. And they can be a bear to deal with sometimes, especially for guys, whose smallish corpus callosum (spelling?) doesn't provide a lot of connections between the emotions and the cognitive part of the brain. But we need to make sure we know what the emotions are and that they are not controlling our decisions.

@ Santa, I see strong emotions leaking out in words like "false messiah" and "completely infantile truth." You prove my point.

@ Santa, Christianity is Jewish. Jewish Messiah. Jewish scriptures. First disciples were Jewish.

"Santa, I see strong emotions leaking out in words like "false messiah" and "completely infantile truth." You prove my point. "

What I'm not allowed to have emotions?

"Santa, Christianity is Jewish. Jewish Messiah. Jewish scriptures. First disciples were Jewish. "

And you believe in a false messiah that obviously has never come and renounced 603 of the commandments, you are not jewish at all

I take that back 604 commandments, you take that gay one pretty seriously too

*602

@ Santa - From gotquestions.org - The Old Testament gives the Law, which has two parts: the commandments and the blessing/curse that comes from obedience or disobedience to those commands. The New Testament clarifies that God gave those commandments to show men their need of salvation; they were never intended to be a means of salvation (Romans 3:19).

"But we need to make sure we know what the emotions are and that they are not controlling our decisions. "

Exactly, which is why you shouldn't let your emotions of elatedness about the "truth" you found shouldn't sidetrack you from visiting your nearest orthodox rabbi and asking him to demolish your whole flimsy religion.

Funny thing Santa, if he never came how did he renounce commandments? But I'm done with arguing. I'm only offering. That's how it works.