This is all very interesting, I am enjoying everyone's arguments, but for the time being wished to remain neutral. The only general complaint I have is Kaiser's poop flinging at Krellin, that makes it not so much fun to read, and I have a deep seeded disrespect for anyone posting messages like that. I second the 'grow up' motion.

That being said, I agree with figle who said it isn't the case that Age <=> maturity, I know a lot of older people who shouldn't even be allowed to drive, and young people who could probably sail the world no problem. In terms of my own kids, I'll have to wait until they're 16 and have a burning desire to sail to answer that. But my gut feeling is that I would tell them to wait until they're at least 18, just to make me more confident in their success.

All of these points are good ones though. Thanks for the read!

@Ghostmaker - the evidence which I FULLY admit I found today is supporting documentation for questioning the judgment. It is TOTALLY valid, since the discussion is about the judgment of the action. Evidence of poor judgment supports my argument The fact that the info only came now does not make it of less importance! The evidence turns a hypothetical discussion into something real....I think you just don't like the outcome based upon the new evidence.

@Ghost - you wrote that sailing around the world is a poor reason (if not for the experience, thrill and joy). The initial trip was widely reported as an attempt to be the youngest ever....THAT was the basis of my argument. THANK YOU FOR FINALLY AGREEING WITH ME! I said risking your life for the sake of your ego was a bad decision...and you have finally seen the light.

krellin, my point wasn't that the point wasn't relevant or sound, but rather that I get the feeling that had the guy been saying "well, these things happen occasionally" rather than "they've made a mistake" it wouldn't be changing your view, and nor is that he did say what he did going to change the views of people on the other side.

I'm open to either possibility being true. What you can't do, and what I object to, is claim that the piracy risk is even relevant or that you can know that these are even approaching the worst parents of the year.

krellin, your argument that it was just about ego is flawed though. Were it just about ego, she would have stopped when she wasn't going to be the youngest.

And please don't say that I have somehow "finally seen the light". It is rather condescending to claim (a) that my position is now precisely the same as yours, it isn't, or (b) that my position has changed. It hasn't, I've just started discussing different aspects of it (I hadn't mentioned possible reasons for wanting to sail around the world.

@Kaiser
"Experience plays a role in that and she, though she has lots of general sailing experience, simply does not know that part of the world."

Ignorance is NOT an excuse when embarking on a journey such as this. If she didn't bother to check to see if she'd be sailing into storm season, then that clearly indicates a lack of something.

As to maturity and age: I hate to break it to you, but there are biological, quantitative differences in youth and adult brains. Does that mean every adult is more mature than every youth? No. It does mean on average they are and it also means that even though a youth appears very mature, their biology won't get the better of them from time-to-time.

@TGM

I'm sorry, but this objective risk assessment is just utter BS. There is no objective level of risk, because that is putting a value on life. You may be OK with a 87% chance that she'll live, but her parents may not be. The fact that Krellin has a lower tolerance for risk for his children should in no way reflect poorly on him.

abge,

Firstly the assessment of how great the risk is is objective. There is a certain %age chance that she dies on the trip. This isn't where you have a problem.

So secondly is the question of the value of her life. You maintain that that is subjective. This to me implies that you wouldn't allow me to criticise the parent who allows their child to take a 99% risk with their life or criticise the parent who disallows their child to take 0.00000000000000001% risk with their life. Would I be right to make those criticisms?

Finally, I have criticised krellin for getting is estimate as to how likely certain outcomes are, and I've criticised him for allowing being a parent to affect the tolerance for risk, which is (as I argue above) not subjective. I have not claimed to know what an appropriate tolerance is.

4 pages of this back and forth already, and I just wanted an entertaining thread about bad parents.Im not really fussed about this girl, If she thought she was up for it and the parents being very exp sailors did too then go for it, but I dont want any tax payers money being spent rescuing her, these glory hunters should take out rescuing insurance(if there is sch a thing)

i submit these parents as the worlds most ignorant/dumbest(surely "worst" is reserved for some dead beat junkie dad and crackwhore mom who abandon the kid in a bin or something)
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37358195/ns/health-kids_and_parenting/

See it isn't just nutty minarchists like me who think taxpayers shouldn't have to fork out the money to save her ^^

I don't think taxpayers should pay either. Of course, I don't think she shouldn't be saved if the parents were too cocky to not get insurance.

lol ghost - I have to disagree with you again. Taxpayers have to pay for the rescue. If the government didn't want to cover the potential cost of a rescue in international waters, then they shouldn't have knowingly allowed her to sail out of port alone.

The rescuing countries should send California the bill.

Actually...no, I don't think that. Rich mommy and daddy should pay and pay well for the rescue! :)

@Ghost - omg....Piracy IS ******A****** risk, whether you acknowledge it or not. Why the hell are you anti-me people so fixated on that one thing! lol but again...this has been a widely publicized event, which would INCREASE the possibility of a kidnapping. I read of a story in New jersey, I think, where underage drivers with restricted licenses will have to have a big red sticker on their license plate. The reason? In general underage kids can't be trusted in cares, and most states have similar laws saying that kids can't drive during certain hours and can only have one passenger int he car. the OBJECTION to the sticker is that is publicly broadcasts that a young person - such as a young girl - is driving the car and announces to predadtors where the kids are. So...the idea that broadcasting the location of a youth....say a 16 year old girl alone in a boat...is generally frowned upon as it presents and heightens risk to said youth. But again...STOP overblowing the god-damned pirate thing! geees!

Regarding the EGO thing....I made my argument EARLY EARLY on in this thread that it was an EGO thing - so YOU have changed your argument since then, or did not fully understand my argument before you started bashing me. Some people get so wrapped up over the age issue they take it as a personal slight. It's not. My argument was sailing around the world for the sake of ego is bad risk. The fact that she continued after losing the record does NOT mean that it isn't still ego driven. I suggest it is. If it's just for the experience of sailing alone, then it wouldn't have to be "around the world".

Krellin: that's what people are saying.
You contradict yourself again - first you think governments should pay for it then that "Rich mommy and daddy should pay". This is also my view, although to what extent I'm unsure. There certainly should be some degree of liability for it.

Yep. Parents should pay. No question.

Well there is a question: you can't suddenly change the rules once something has begun.

Ah yes, should have finished my sentence: No question in my mind.

And I guess she was just doing it for her ego:

"A lifelong sailor whose father is a shipwright and has a yacht management company, Abby set sail from Los Angeles County's Marina del Rey in her 40-foot boat, Wild Eyes, on Jan. 23 in an attempt to become the youngest person to sail around the world alone without stopping."

So she did it to be the youngest, which is why she couldn't wait.

@Krellin - have you ever sailed an ocean? Do you know anything about locator beacons and their frequencies? I suspect not. The pirates wouldn't have the frequency of her beacon and she wouldn't be sailing in the shipping tlanes they frequent. The risk of pirates is little to none. You have a greater risk of being mugged in the bright lights of Broadway right in front of a cop than of the pirates discovering your exact position.

Trust me, I sail. Growing up, Virginia Beach was my summer home at my grandparents and I spent many a day both on the Chesapeake Bay and outside the bay on the Atlantic in a 12 meter sloop. Her biggest risk was the squalls coming up and capsizing her sloop.

Ok this conversation is atrocious. First of all, the girl is safe.

http://soloround.blogspot.com/2010/06/photo-and-flyover-update.html

Secondly, she's a professional. I know how hard it is for adults to let go of the preconception that 'kids will be kids', but let's face it, there are plenty of excellent, talented teenagers out there who are way better than their parents. Among my circle of friends at school right now - a successful and published novelist, the owner of a fledgling record label (my roommate, actually), a student of economics doing groundbreaking research in game theory, and a microbiologist working with UNAIDS in Malawi.

There are people doing great things out there, and sure, it's often at great personal risk to themselves. But give it a break - yeah?

Oh, and there are no pirates in the Southern Indian Ocean, krellin. Trust me, I come from the area.

@krellin
The first few lines are self-contradictory and incomprehensible

Anyway,
“Piracy IS ******A****** risk, whether you acknowledge it or not”
It is negligible. Abduction was a risk of my walking to the shops, but it was such a small risk that it is irrelevant.

“you anti-me people”
I’m not anti-you, I am anti-wrong statements. Your claims that anything *other than a sailing accident* is a risk to her is wrong, and that is why I have criticised it.
The major problem with your whole response to other people has been that you want to put me in a box with “disagrees with everything” marked next to it, without noticing the nuances in other people’s positions....hence the drivel of a last paragraph.

“before you started bashing me”
I started “bashing you” right from your first post, where you said, “Makes me sick to my stomach. I don't care how well trained my daughter is at something, I would never let her go around the world on her own. I just pray she isn't a sex slave on a pirate boat right now.” Referencing nothing other than the risk of piracy, and pronouncing them the worst parents ever.

As such, I think it is probably you who has changed your tune.

@Ava - some of us recognize that she, despite only being 16, is a more skilled sailor than many adults twice her age and had just as much business as any of them do out there. I guarantee her skill is greater than mine and I've been sailing over 30 years. I just don't get to sail every day (more like a couple times a month during the summer at Acton Lake and once or twice each summer out on Brookville Lake).

@Draug +1

crazy, and i'm impressed by the skill and dedication of this girl.

Krellin this is an interesting thread, you get +1 for bringing up an interesting topic, and -30 for being so stupid about it.

Out of interest, why are we now being told that this young woman is a professional (somewhere above)?

On a purely anecdotal note:

I have a (brother-in-law of a) friend who is a mad yachtsman. He has entered many big races (South China Sea, Sidney Hobart etc). A few years back he told his wife he was going to sail back to the UK from HK with her and the three kids - a trip that would take him through the Straights of Malacca and the Indian Ocean. She absolutely refused. She said he could do it alone but she would meet him in London. She did.

@flashman - I made that statement only after doing my homework on it.

From www.abbysunderland.com:

"A Lifetime of Training
Abby has an extensive sailing background, being raised in and around sailboats. She has accumulated thousands of miles of coastal cruising through a number of hazardous weather conditions."

From Abby Sunderland's Wikipedia page:

"Born October 19, 1993 (age 16)
Nationality American
Occupation Adventurer
Known for Setting out to be the youngest person to sail around the world solo."

I'm just glad the kid is okay.

+1 to TGM for saying in a much more direct manner exactly what I was trying to say earlier. Hopefully you won't get crucified for it.

in retrospect, that endorsement was probably the kiss of death