From the little I know about Nader, he is quite a fool. Sure, he may be a kindly soul, but that doesn't make him right.

i doubt the banks would have figured something out, but that's hard to prove

jimgov, most of the statistics you'd site to prove that things are "getting better" are all smoke and mirrors designed to produce unwarranted confidence in the economy. The much-touted unemployment rate is the best debunked (in my county, the official government-approved unemployment statistic peaked at 14.1% and has been declining - not because there are more jobs, but because people are falling off the back end or, like me, never being included because we are/were self-employed and ineligible for unemployment benefits).

I'm not a Republican, I've had no truck with them aside from my support of Ron Paul in 2008, and I absolutely hated George W. and the leaches, cockroaches, and vultures who composed his administration. I'm not saying things are getting worse because I hate Obama (I actually have a bit of respect for him, even though I obviously disagree on policy across the board). I'm saying they're getting worse *because they are*, and all the top-down keynesian big government/big business 'solutions' my precious tax dollars are being wasted on aren't fixing anything.

I can't afford a failed American economy. I'm self-employed, and my business is down 95% from where it was 18 months ago now that my last big client effectively laid me off yesterday. I need things to get better, not worse, before my savings run out later this year and I get foreclosed on as well. The Bush/Obama giveaways obviously aren't doing that. They're making things worse. My criticism is born from a desire for my own survival, not from loyalty to one party or another.

You must know nothing about him then, he isn't exactly kindly and certainly isn't foolish. He's pragmatic and he hates corporations

that's understandable tolstoy

So no wait a second, my entire argument throughout this thread was just given a +2 modifier by the argument presented by Tolstoy. I own face. Get the fuck out of here Jim

That's a +2 modifier on a 6 sided die.

He hates corporations; well, he's foolish. Corporations are the wrong people to hate. Hate the lobbyists, hate the politicians, hate the regulators, the bureaucrats who create the situation where the only way to fulfill fiduciary duty to shareholders is to use the law to screw other competitors, but don't hate the businessman, for he is a simple soul, principally acting simply to make profit, and it is on the basis of that that the West grew in the first place. It is the government that has warped the profit making with false incentives

"For almost seventy years the life insurance industry has been a smug sacred cow feeding the public a steady line of sacred bull." NADER

All I know about Nader is his nonsensical activism against the Chevrolet Corvair.

"Jim, the market is not finished crashing my friend. Obama has yet to accomplish anything he set out to do, besides win a bullshit Nobel Peace Prize." Now, if that doesn't at least lay the groundwork for blaming Obama for everything, then I misread it. I am used to hearing this crap from all of the extreme Republicans over here. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

You know who is better than Nader? Karl Marx.

""For almost seventy years the life insurance industry has been a smug sacred cow feeding the public a steady line of sacred bull." NADER"

Okay, as if they were forcing the public to by insurance. Look, people should make their own choice about it. The corporations can advertise, can they not? At least, unlike the government, they never force you to do anything.

"Jim, the market is not finished crashing my friend. Obama has yet to accomplish anything he set out to do, besides win a bullshit Nobel Peace Prize."

That says simply that he hasn't fixed it, not that he caused it in the first place.

Odd that I'm defending a communist here.

They are both evil and must be destroyed. Government and Corporations that is.

"The corporate lobby in Washington is basically designed to stifle all legislative activity on behalf of consumers. "

Ghost are you aware of true communism? Or just the definition fed to you by the media?

Oh, I agree otto. And with the recent Supreme Court decision, it will only get worse. And Ghost, like I said, you don't listen to all of the crap on this side of the pond. It sounds the same.

That is just not true, if only it were. The lobby is their to make laws directly to protect the large corporations. The last thing that they want is a free market. If you have a free market, you have to innovate to stay alive, and if you are making a profit, somebody else will come and attack your market share. And attack, and take, and you will make less of a profit. To quote, "Capitalism is a big conspiracy to drive profits to zero"

Answer me this. If all trade is voluntary, why would you need consumer protection, aren't people smart enough to protect themselves?

So now wait, Jim just said I was right. So why are you not arguing with the 16 year old that is apparently correct and has been correct since the beginning? I think you should reexamine yourself Jim.

"And Ghost, like I said, you don't listen to all of the crap on this side of the pond. It sounds the same."

No idea what you mean.

My previous post was answering ottovanbis's quotation

people are dumb

Otto you almost set me up.
People are crazy and times are strange
I'm locked up tight I'm out of range
I used to care but things have changed.

But you trust them to vote in elections. You trust politicians to pass good legislation, too. Surely, as public choice theory argues, any market failure will be replicated in government, only far more frequently and with far worse consequences?

In other words, you are committing the Nirvana fallacy: the reality of government is nothing like the omniscient omnipotent angels you must necessarily envisage.

Sorry ghost. Too many posts while I am playing a live game. Lets just say, that our system over here is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. And not all lobbyists are bad. Many have a very valuable job in getting their constituents points to the people in power. But that is not all of them. Many of them are just plain trying to buy the government and, unfortunately, they succeed. This ruling from the Supreme Court unties their hands and allows even more money to flow into the hands of those politicians who can be bought. And the number of those, both dems and republicans, is frighteningly high.

Who are you talking to ghosty?

Anyone who thinks that the government should intervene in the economy.

I'll challenge Marxism too, though.

If you care to justify why corporations are wrong.