Draugner: I think someone is going to put that on paper just because of you and no, I am not making things up. If you are here, then there is no reason for a pause. And what is wrong with you, anyway? Why are you getting so emotional? You are being told that you can't do whatever you want. It is that simple. Moderators are here so they can keep the integrity of the game. If the person playing with you was dumb enough not to complain, then you might deserve your draw for that game. Nevertheless, that doesn't mean that doing that again is OK. People deserve the right to continue their games.

Your home page?

Oh, nice.

JECE - who made you a fucking mod. NO ONE! Until a mod tells me they will ban me if I do it again (and they won't because I didn't do anything against the rules) I'll do what I fucking want you little cum-stain brat your mom forgot to abort after her pimp got her knocked up.

Home page? Oh nice? What weird shit are you smoking?

If a player is trying to gain any diplomatic favour, including, but not limited to, drawing, in return for unpausing a game, and it comes to my attention, I shall check that all players are able to access the site to an extent that makes them able restart playing and unpause the game.

Fine, I resign from the site. I will not be returning. The majority voted to NOT unpause and you would override that for the one and only player who wanted to unpause. You sir are an ASS of the ultimate kind. Remove me from it all, Ghostass.

Draug - that's not a reasonable attitude. You accept that there are rules. Ghost has just explained one (a new one) quite clearly. It seems to be one that, to judge by the arguments on this thread, is supported by most players here. I don't see it written anywhere that the majority of players in a game have a right to stop playing indefinitely against the wishes of other players - to me it seems that we're all here to play and that it's those that don't wish to that are out of kilter even if they are in a local majority. You might not like the new rule. You might decide that you will not play here under that rule. Those are your rights and you have a limited right to freedom of speech but you are just wrong when you deduce that Ghost is an ass from his decision to clarify this rule (I have absolutely no idea whether he is or is not an ass - never met the chap)

Get back on the meds Draugnar.

Either that or finally follow through on one of your "threats" (As if we care) and gtfo.

Bye bye dont let the door hit you in the dumb ass. You wanted a rule and now you have a rule that you broke.

Broken? Have you ever heard the term "ex post facto" dumbass? It means you can't make a rule or law after the fact and have it apply to events from before hand. I did NOT break a rule. A rule was made (maybe, that's up to debate if Ghostass has that right) AFTER I did it, but not before. And yes, I do chose to NOT play under that rule. I have sent an email to the mods requesting to be struckf rom the site. I have no more desire to be here and am taking these last few moments to say good by in PMs to a few people I like before I get voluntarily banned.

YAWN!!!
Are you still talking????

Byebye, Draugnar.

And good fucking riddance.

Lolz... Are you really so pathetic that you can't restrain yourself from playing on this site without the mods banning you?

Draugnar:

Firstly, I am doing nothing about that Gunboat game. From this point forward, I will be following that rule. Yes, I have heard of the term "ex post facto".

Secondly, everyone wanted the game to proceed, but the majority wanted it to proceed by a draw, and was willing to use the fact that the third wanted the game to proceed to get it. Draws are not available on a majority basis, and the fact that a game is paused does not have any bearing on that fact.

Thirdly, I am not "abusing my power as a mod" as you claim in your email. I have discussed this with the person who grants me the power as a mod, who agrees with my view.

Finally, we don't ban people on request, since we don't want to be asked to unban people again, you having asked me to ban you, and then asked that I don't ban you the next day.

@Ivo_ivanov, JECE and others

Blackmail issue – good points, well made – maybe we shouldn’t make rules because of some idiots abusing it.

(1) Affects game dynamics – CD/NMR do too I agree.

(2) People should know how long game takes – maybe I should be more considerate to people who take a different attitude to the game.

(3) Sitters question, you are right of course this can affect the game dynamic

(4) Other games, - I agree different games have different codes for a variety of reasons.

(5) Flip flopping – I never said I was strict and principled or reasonable and flexible. I think I’m strictly flexible and reasonably principled.

Some people do inform how long they are going to be absent and then say they are not unpausing because another 'reason' has come up thereby denying us a vote.

'two cents' is an idiom yes.

As you may have noticed, I am coming round to pausing more often - but i could be tilted backwards if anyone else abuses it. I think I may keep my profile as it is for a little while longer. :)

When this Game was created, it was meant to resemble the "real world" as much as possible, specifically of course the way warfare happened in the real world.

I think it has succeeded remakrbaly well; reason why we are all more or less 'addicted" to this Game.

During World War 1, World War 2 and you name every other war in history, their participants most certainly included numerous Douche-Bags, Maniacs, raving lunatics, mass murderers, megalomaniacs and, who knows, perhaps also a sprinkling of "really nice guys" who wage their wars as if they were at a genteel County Cricket match and who wail loudly in terms of" I don't want to play with YOU any more", just like 15-year old school-girls do, whenever someone else did something that didn't meet their fuzzy abstract and ever-shifting ever-so-noble codes of conduct.

What we are seeing here in this thread is that many players feel that douche-bags and weirdo's should somehow be banished (ethnically cleansed, perhaps..?) from this game, and possibly from this earth as well.

Many excesses have of course resulted throughout history as a consequence of this otherwise very understandable (?) and noble (?) pursuit.

The facts are: The world, and WebDiplomacy, is/are full of weirdo's, creeps, crooks and vagabonds, and sure as apple pie that will never change. Live with it, I'd say!

I for one would much rather play Web Dip with all kinds of strange and colourful characters than with prissy tight-assed preppy whiners, full of their Righteous Indignation and Monica Lewinsky-like "bitter tastes in their mouths", but who are basically one thing and one thing only: bloody boring!

I have been fairly vocal in this debate, and very much on the side of the "pausewhen requested faction". To those who think otherwise, I may disagree, but I respect your right to have an opinion (I am not really that keen on being label a "pussy" or a "prissy tight-arsed preppy whiner" - but hell, sticks and stones).
However I think it is good to have these discussions as it helps us to create a community. It also helps us to estabish community norms. It might well be that the "no-pausers" have a case - though I must admit that I have not been impressed by the arguments put forward so far (although full credit to Maniac for making a case and being civil about it).
I guess what I am saying is we don't need to feel offended by these discussions regardless of where you sit. IMHO.

wow look what I missed b/c I wasn't checking the forum. i too am in that game, and Pantalone's move was d*ckish in the extreme and I said so on the global tab. I hope he is blacklisted (ie, not played with) or ganged-up on a few times (yes its meta gaming, but hey, you want to be an ass, accept the consequences)


As for this site - its a community. it will always be a 'community'. how this community evolves depends in PART on the rules... but there is no judicial jurisdiction here... you cant complain to the federal courts... its up to Kestas and the mods... but before it even gets to the "rules" question - its a question of "community standards"

... its about the other people on this site. and Pantalone and Draugnar, it should be clear to you BOTH by now that your actions are not condoned or accepted by the 'community'... because we as a group come up with social norms to help create civilized social interactions... now its true that norms can change and they do... so if you had convincing arguments, or good points to make, you might change the attitude of the 'community' over time... but you two have failed miserably at that... and I am happy to see that Draugnar does not feel welcome here with that attitude. I would hope he sleeps on it, re-reads the above thread, thinks this through and realizes that he is being a douchebag just so he can think he's "right"... and that he comes back and accepts that his past action was not appropriate... but if not... bye!

as for Pantalone - BoG and Centurian explained the situation in our game quite well - this was not a "principled" position - it was not even reasoned... it was a purely childish and cowardly act by a pretty bad player and a worst diplomat. Pantalone, I think you should find a different hobby.

yeah, I realize I'm being quite mean above... but I felt a need to vent as well - i have seen some bad behavior by people on this site, but what Pantalone did was by far the most disgusting act i have come across.

Babak shows us an excellent example of what is know in sociology as "Group Think"; he himself calls it being "condoned or accepted by the 'community". The fact that he puts 'community' in apostrophes, is significant: he himself realizes the vagueness of this notion.

Group Think is very dangerous; it was what drove the baying masses at the early nazi rally's; It also resulted historically in mass hysteria during burnings, hangings and even today at stonings and public decapitations in certain jurisdictions in this words; and it is once again showing its ugly face here in this Thread as well, sadly.

Of course my motivations were petty, childish and vengeful. So what? Are the motivations for disloyal backstabbers of alies any purer? Any more noble? What about that old notion of those who are without sin casting the first stone, etc etc?

Stop this grand-standing Group Think rhetoric, Babak, and go back to enjoying Diplomacy, warts (and douche-bags) and all....

if you are comparing yourself to a lynching/stoning/nazi victim of "mass hysteria" you are even more delusional than I first considered. you sound downright Beckian with your "logic".

you do seem to understand that 'community' is indeed a human construct... everything we do as human beings we do in SOME form of 'community'. and in every community and society, those social norms exist whether you want to put a subjective "good" or "bad" adjective to describe the norms... what THAT means is that there are norms. deal with it.

if you want to compare a "pause when asked" norm to a "mass-hysteria of the baying masses" norm then that simply shows your inability to logically differentiate between norms. yes, they are both 'norms' within the context of a given 'community'... but you can not equate them.

as for me enjoying diplomacy... you know what I'll enjoy? when we eliminate YOU from that game and call a 6-way draw that includes texasdeluxe...

how do you like them apples?

So to sum up - refusing to unban whilst not breaking any site rules is morally completely unacceptable and the perpertrators should be hung, drawn and quartered (and then drown), whereas metagaming to get back at people who don't pause is completely acceptable and should be encouraged and even rewarded with gold stickers. (Even though it is against the rules)

I like this site :)

Pantalone has completely distorted the notion of groupthink. Groupthink refers to a situation where the pressure to conform undermines critical thinking. It is not the same thing as community.

Wow. Quite a read.

Yes, I'm back.

I must say, I am disappointed I didn't get a pause in this game (which I kinda assumed would get paused, since we just got back from a pause). I'm mainly disappointed since I really relish the opportunity to play with such high calibre and respected players (which is quite hard to build up the reputation and respect to do) and because the diplomacy was going so well and I had never been a part of a Turkish-Austrian alliance before (albeit as Austria!) and wanted to see if we could make it work.

Of course, as petty as it might be, Russia didn't have to pause.

I did of course stab him 3 times, although he pretty much invited the knife. I don't think that's much of an excuse.

I feel this has brought out so much discussion and emotion from the other players as we all were having such a great game, stabs and all, and really wanted to see it continue. Games like these, with these players, for me anyway, are a rarity.

I for one now try and pick my games to play against players that I hope won't CD so I can avoid this kind of power imbalance. I feel the pause is a great tool to prevent CDs and I always grant pauses. After all. If someone never returns, a Mod can always unpause. I know it's a pain, but with 7 players, sometimes people need to go away...

Anyway, just thought, since there were 114 replies to this post, I should respond.

Spyman - Group Think is where everyone joins in to conform to the "group consensus", in this case to "cast stones" at one player for not conforming to group action (6 paused, no. 7 refused), even though in doing so the individual did not break any of the group's accepted defined rules and regulations.

The mere fact that a group is baying at one individual is enough, according to Group Think theories, to let others enter this fray and without too much thinking, join in the attack, or abuse. Interestingly enough, this behaviour is also observed amongst many animals who live in groups (e.g. wolves). They mainly use this behaviour to effectively carry out any "cleansing" of the group of different-minded group members or even old and sick specimens.

Nothing unusual about all this then, and I am not complaining; simply observing. I had hoped that with more and more millions of clear and rational thinking people on this earth, helped by knowledge spreading through the Internet, increased education etc etc that at least amongst educated humans such as frequent this Web Diplomacy site, the more basal aspects of the Group Think phenomena might be on their way out.

This thread has proven beyond any shade of a doubt that Group Think is still very much alive and kicking and that my idealistic hopes are still largely an illusion (despite such rays of light such as Maniac, Draugnar (although I cannot sympathize with the latter's outbursts of extremely foul language; which however I will defend to my death his right to utter them.....!!) and a few others on this Thread).....

P.S. to Babak - Of course I am not comparing myself to a nazi rally victim, you silly man! I am simply saying that Group Think is at the basis of all these similar sociological phenomena. Clearly there are endless shades in severity of their effects on their "victims" and of course I am on the very mild end of that vast scale. Even you should have understood that right away.....

Let's stop waxing lyrical with all this intellectual jargon? Isn't the point revenge? It's really just an ethical issue if not pausing is a justifiable means to an end... I think most of us prefer to play on equal terms and to win by our wits, strategy and daring and not by opportunistic twists of fate. Group Think? Are you serious? Let's put this in perspective.

I'd suggest a rematch with Pantalone, but he's such an easy beat that it'd be quite boring... How you let me convince you to build that fleet in St. P. north coast and start that mess with England... I'm still laughing about that!

Oh yeah. Dem Apples!

Wooo!

Pantalone: You've made me hate you so much I'm putting a blacklist in my profile, and recommending to everyone who reads it that no one plays with you again. The Draug Queen (If he ever returns *Sigh of Contentment*) is also on the list.

"I'll do what I fucking want you little cum-stain brat your mom forgot to abort after her pimp got her knocked up."
my sincere congratulations for this sentence. I laughed my ass out.

'If you got a blacklist, I want to be on it' The bard (of Barking)