Go Capt Brad.. Whining about someone else making jokes and being critical. Just as well Capt Brad sets such a good example by never indulging in that sort of behaviour.

Thanks for your input everyone.

Next time I do this I will think about it first.

"Next time I do this I will think about it first."

Lol, why? No one else does. :^)

That's true.

Stop encouraging him

@bo, you have no idea what Christianity is about, do you?

You know what my answer to that question will be and I know what your thoughts on that matter are, so why not just spit out whatever vomit you're about to throw my way so we can get this beatdown over with?

Christianity is about murdering rapists who ask Jesus for forgiveness going to heaven and atheists who they raped and murdered going to hell because they didn't let Jesus into their lives.

On the same note, I heard on Radio 4 this evening that muslims who died in Grenfell Tower go straight to heaven as martyrs. It beggars belief!

Actually, primates are social animals and pretty much all social animals act with altruism fairly frequently. Sure, it feels good, but that's just why people act selflessly, but that's not self interest

Pretty much every element of empathy operates this way.

Of course people without empathy don't understand that.

The only empathy I have is from what I learned on management training courses. I don't have any, but I can make all the right signals to pretend I do.
But I understand your statement.

Actually, a lot of societies perform well if not better without capitalism. Frankly, capitalism is arguably a sad distortion of social behavior.

None of you will understand because you refuse to. That's your problem not mine.

I have a minor in religion. It's not much, but you should try anyway. Maybe you'll be surprised.

in religion?!? i am a little more impressed by you, bo.

ogion, do you feel that way when you collect your fee too?

What does that even mean? What do they teach you in your "religion minor.?"

@TooCoolSunday. are you listening to fundamental protestants? try listening to charismatic catholics instead

@"But.... even when you do things that seem to be selfless you still get a good feeling from helping the helpless."

Yes, humans have evolved as social apes, so they feel good when their actions help others (and not just other humans, they will risk their lives to saves pets, or help cute baby kittens...). This 'feeling good' is an intrinsic part of human nature (not all humans are capable of empathy, and there is a lot of people who don't prioritise helping other, but leaving those aside). The fact is, we are - by and large - hardwired to help others.

We are also hardwired to figure out what is in the best interest of ourselves and other. We try to figure out what other people want, and assign them with minds and try to understand their motivations, sometimes we mistakenly assign other things with minds to... Like God, which we invented. And we try to figure out what God wants and how to make that concept happy... Which, unfortunately leads to many disagreements, as different version of the God idea clearly 'want' different things...

Of course we're not perfect at doing these tasks, sometimes we just can't fathom how a person could want a certain thing, who here can claim to understand the motivations of the 9/11 highjackers? They undoubtedly thought of themselves as good people, but we can only imagine them as evil... We sometimes find it very hard to imagine hypotheticals which contradict some of our own deepest ideas. Like 'American Capitalism is Great', as a patriotic American you probably see your state as great, and have that idea tied into what makes you great (as you are an American), to give up that costs you. So you immediately jump to defending any attacks against evdn the idea of your country. (Of course you could substitute almost anything in here for 'American', is being Christian great? Or being a football player, or a fan of whatever thing you happen to be fanboying over?

*damn hit send too early*

)

@uber ... one of the first things that I was taught in the beginning of each of the four classes I took on Christianity is that it is very hard to define Christianity. I tend to think of Christianity as people that are faithful to their beliefs and call themselves Christian. Assuming that you follow one of the more mainstream sects of Christianity, or at least mainstream here in the United States, and without knowing or necessarily needing to know which one it is (though I would appreciate you telling me for the sake of our discussion, if you like), you probably have a life full of insights, dogmas, philosophies, and principles that you follow. Perhaps you're faithful to the right degree, wherein your faith enhances your life and helps you navigate difficult paths. Perhaps you're faithful to a fault. I don't know; only you do.

What I do know is that your sect of Christianity is not the only one and when you discuss Christianity and ask me whether or not I understand Christianity, you seem to be forgetting that. Your sect of Christianity may follow the Trinity, for example - the vast majority of the common branches of Christianity in the United States do. Your sect may be one of the minority of common branches, though, or even an uncommon branch. You might be a Mormon or a member of the Unitarian Church. You might belong to Christian Science. Each of these three have either a different version of Trinitarianism than most. It is, therefore, difficult, if not impossible, to define Christianity as a Trinitarian faith because in doing so, you reject those that disagree but still for very real reasons call themselves Christian. Same goes for the Bible - which version do you use, and how can you be certain that it is superior to other versions? The Bible has changed countless times over the last couple thousand years with saints and sinners alike rewriting it to the tune of their own agenda. Even before the time of Jesus and Paul, there were other documents remarkably similar to the Bible. Other than on a historical timeline where the life of Jesus Christ, a very real person, and the writings of a number of his disciples play a defining role, do we know where Christianity actually starts? Where does Christianity end? Frankly, nobody that I'm aware has adequately answered that question and it only gets more complicated as time goes on and more and more people develop beliefs parallel but not exactly in line with the "norm," calling them Christian and skillfully justifying themselves in taking on that label.

A minor in religion is not particularly impressive, nor is a minor in anything really. It means very little, has no bearing on any job ever, and basically just signifies that I, out of my own interest, took a bunch of classes that just so happened to get me near the requirements for a minor during my freshman year and finished it up in the two years of college I had left basically for no other reason than to say that I have a minor in religion.

If you would like to have a conversation about Christianity, its faults, its history, and the things that make it fascinating, righteous, beautifully intentioned, and yet at times a brutally destructive force throughout the last couple thousand years into the modern day, I'm happy to talk about it. I can do that without being critical of Christians such as yourself and I have no desire or need to critique your beliefs. Your beliefs are your own just as mine are my own. If we have that conversation, though, I insist that we have it with an open mind toward each other and toward anyone else that wants to contribute their thoughts, which means that you must first understand - actually understand, not just tell me you understand and then demonstrate that you don't - that your beliefs that you have developed throughout your life are not superior to mine, nor anyone else's, and that you cannot truly have a discussion of this magnitude without acknowledging that you have no higher pedestal to stand on. You're starting on the ground, just like the rest of us.

"None of you will understand because you refuse to. That's your problem, not mine" (Ubercacher)... Reads like a classic "denial" response.
I disliked the absolutism of your assertion at the start of this thread dearest Ubercacher.
In my opinion self interest is a very powerful motivating "force", humans are, as others have mentioned, " social, intelligent primates" so a lot of social activities that benefit others also have a component of self interest.
Human behaviour is complex, so making sweeping simple absolute assertions about human behaviour is fraught with risk.
Consider classic primal drivers of human behaviour.. Greed, Lust & Envy ... Consider how these drive behaviours that might bring short term gain for an individual, but are often self destructive behaviours.
Self destructive behaviours, "addiction" behaviours are the best examples of behaviours that are most definitely not in the individual's self interest.
Take the good old behavioural dichotomy.. Punishment and Reward...there's a validity to the propositions based on punishment and reward shaping behaviour ..but to suggest all behavioural training/responses etc can be explained with simple "Boo/Hoorah" theories is simply naive.
I'm starting to wonder if you, Ubercacher, have some study assignment in basic behavioural psychology on the topic of self interest... And you've created the thread to get ideas for your assignment. It's OK if you have.. Creating Forum threads at WebDiplomacy to help with High Skool, College & undergraduate studies has a long tradition.
I like BoSox's reminiscing about his religious studies. I like to joke that one of my old Skools was so exclusive that a chap needed a personal referral from a Magistrate to get "enrolled". Anyway I had a rather old fashioned traditional education (of sorts) and the classes for religious studies went by the subject name of "Divinity" classes. In which we had things like The Catechism & The Nicean Creed drilled into our clockwork brains.

@Orathaic, what exactly are you trying to say here? Is atheism great? Do you think things that you like are great? What is the point of such questions?

@bo, interesting, I am willing to start on the ground, but I must tell you that part of my belief system is that I am in fact right, although I understand why you wouldn't like that and am willing to admit that I may be wrong.

Most people's belief systems assert that they are right. We can't all be right. If someone is so stuck in their belief system that they must absolutely be right, then they will never open themselves up to such a conversation, so I appreciate that.

I'll be at work until late tonight, so I won't be replying to anything any time soon.

MajorMitchell, thank you for your input, I don't have an assignment, would have mentioned it if I did, but I was interested in the discussion.

I am sad that no one responded to my attempt to whip up conterversy

@Uber, atheists don't have any unifying creed, the only possible unifying idea which atheists can have is that not believing in a god (usually the specific on which is mainstream in their culture), is superior to believing in that god.

So atheist groups, ie people who specifically decide to gather in groups based around their lack of common creed, tend to be populated by self-righteous assholes who think they are better than non-atheists.

Of course they think Atheism is great.

what is so superior to not believing in something? everyone believes in electricity even if they don't understand it.

I am a necesssary atheist, because I cannot conceive of the concept of what a "god" is. Being unable to do that, I cannot make a judgement about whether such a thing exists - because how could I? Thus the only possible useful way for me to act, is on the basis that he/she/it/etc is not present.