"Have any of you considered"

If you're asking a question that starts with this, the answer is usually yes.

Generally, walking up to people you don't know and offering them unsolicited advice about anything is stupid and rude, barring some kind of urgent situation (e.g. "your hair is on fire" or "your fly is down"). Generally, berating someone without knowing their individual situation is stupid and rude. Why are you bringing this up? Are you feeling berated about something?

On the other hand, this:

"The reality is that cultural appropriation is more about misusing a culture than subjugating a race. If you dye your skin red and dance around a fire making that icon icky racist "Indian" chant that's cultural appropriation, taking the time to learn and master true Native American music and dance is not."

Is pretty much where I'm at, opinion-wise.

An example of cultural appropriation that I can relate to is passing off paintings done in the style of Australian Aboriginal paintings as authentic when they are not is cultural appropriation (the bad kind).

@Spyman, i will try to reply to your responce here:

"This is a faulty analogy. We are born with hair on our heads. A hairstyle is in no way analogous the Bible. "

No, both are forms of expression, how you wear your clothes or how you spread your religious belief, both are forms of speech; in the sense that you are choosing to express something when you dress as a goth or wear dreads, it is very similar to expression of a religious form like wearing a cross or hijab. At least in form (i am not saying it is the same in effect or intention)

@"But it hasn't been established that is actually racist." - entirely true. I believe i addressed that elsewhere.

@"This nothing to do with whether or not white people wearing dreads is racist."

How so? It has everythig to do with black culture being under threat - the forcing of people to not wear dreads, as a small part of this assimulation, is the entire point. There would be nobody complaing about white people wearing dreads if black people wearing dreads were not being discriminated against.

Ie if the power dynamic was different.


@"But if someone wants to take the Bible as a starting point for a new religion I have personally thing that is okay. The Mormons have done, it and so have the Rastafarians. And no doubt the Bible will continue to be the seed for new religious ideas."

That is not the question, what if the want to do that WHILE christian culture is being suppressed. Lets assume they are part of a cultural grouping which is actively trying to wipe out all original copies of the bible. (See the difference?)

@"Dreads have been popular amongst white people since the 1990s (sure a few before then, but that is when it really took off), and yet until recently (almost) no one had a problem with it."

Apologies for mis-remembering how you opene this. That is has no become a problem which you are aware of, doesn't mean it wasn't a problem you were unaware of in the past.

@"begging the question. You have not established that white people wearing dreads is abuse of anything."

I have established that it is part of a privileged white culture which ignores the views of minorities. Again, it may not be the biggest racial issue in America today, you're not going to see #blackhairstylesmatter, but it is a part of said system. (And again, not speaking as a member of the black community, they can freely correct me if i'm wrong.)


@"There you go again. Begging the question. You need to first establish that black people have exclusive rights to the hairstyle"

I'm not establishing that claim. I an establishig the opposite, that white people wearing dreads is part of a system which is racist. (Feels like a proof by contradiction now, if you're familiar with the mathematics)

@"Does not the principle apply equally to Blue music. Was it racist for Eric Clapton to play the blues. Is it racist for any of us to listen to blues music or hip hop?"

I believe you find many people say things along these lines. You can talk about Elvis copying his music and 'makig it cool' in white communities. I'm sure there are ample examples of white people getting rich off of a black cultural legacy, while black artists have been left rather poor and under-privileged. And if you look it up, you will find many conversations about how this is problematic in exactly the same way.

Though i do think it is changing, there are a number of black super-stars, and Eminem was not a powerful privileged white person, he came from the same poor background as a lot if the black rappers he worked with. (And continued to work with, afaik, he didn't abandon them and screw them over havig taken what he needed to become famous)


Also, thank you for a reasonable conversation, i think we both mis-understood each other's opening statements, and yet we've managed to discuss this fairly reasonably.

Finally @"And ultimately that is what this thread is about. When is it okay to be influenced by another culture."

Influenced and co-opted by are two different things. In one case there is change but it is not forced (japan-america influencing each's animation styles) in the other the is a power dynamic which can make things problematic.

@"See, this is how conditioned to conformity liberals are. Someone on facebook said something is racist, and therefore it must be, and I should make a drama out of it."

Leon, it is called empathy. 'I heard something was bad, and then i stopped doing it'

Orthaic, I heard breathing was bad.

I'm *sure* orathaic values your knowledge of and lived experience with breathing above his own, leon. We'll be seeing the obituary tomorrow.

@"If your answer is "no" or "I don't have a position, personally", then what I said is correct. You have been playing the devils advocate. Nothing wrong with that. It wasn't a criticism."

I believe personally that i should listen to members of the less privileged community when deciding issues which directy affect them. (Similarily you should listen to sex workers when discussing the legalisation of prostitution, and to drug users when planning a war on drugs)

The general principle here is: listen to the less empowered groups when making decisions which affect them. (This is more important if you are the government because everyone is comparatively weak when you happen to run the show, but most power structures we have leave the most vocal constituents - ie the powerful, wealthy ones - having the biggest say - and the weakest being harmed the most)

So, to answer your question. I would not oersonally wear dreads, it is not a part of my culture, and i would not like to be so insensitive.)

@"Have any of you considered the emotional detriment you could have walking up to a person you don't know and berating them for their hair or clothing choices because..."

Have any of us advocated taking this approach? Strawman.

@"I always thought of it as a hippie thing. So the people I knew with dreads (no one now)..."

And there you have a sligthly different cultural context. In the absence of black people in australia, suddenly you are borrowing from these older hippies, and forging your own culture, while NOT harming anyone.

Today however we have this thing called the internet, which changes 'where' everyone is, or how their cultural context connects to others.

Ok, finally caught up... :)

"I believe personally that i should listen to members of the less privileged community when deciding issues which directy affect them. "

Not all black people have a problem with white people wearing dreads. In fact I suspect only a minority do, but those here who live in Britain or American (countries with lots of people of African ancestory) might have a better idea than me.

Most youtube videos that I have seen made by black people say that I have seen have argued that the notion is ridiculous. That is they have no problem with white people wearing dreads.

The few videos that I have seen that adopt the opposite position (ie it is racist for white people to wear dreads) have been made by highly educated black people. Arguably part of the elite themselves. I think have been influenced (brainwashed?) by a load of trendy academic left-wing crap.

I think just because someone makes a claim like this doesn't mean we should just accept the claim. Yes we should consider peoples feelings but there are limits.

I think white people who adopt this position (dreads = racist) are flagellating themselves in order to demonstrate their commitment to liberal ideology (liberals are mostly fine, but there is a loopy extreme on both the right and the left). I think a lot of ultra-political correctness has taken up the role the church used to play, that is reminding us that we are all sinners and we need to be purged.

I think black people who make this claim are jumping on an opportunity to make themselves feel powerful and to demonstrate their intellect and express their hostility towards white people.

I really don't know... that's what I think after a couple of days of thinking about topic.

@"Because most people understand that culture and race are separate but apparently we today can't see past race. All the examples of cultural appropriation we've expressed..."

But race is a cultural construct... I'm really confused, here watch this:

https://youtu.be/BGIetWAds6A

Interesting video, orathaic.

The reason I bring up the "walking up to someone" example is because it is the extreme of what is happening here. In this example we are casting judgement on people from afar based on what we perceive as racist and disrespectful life choices. What my example is saying is: would you walk up to someone and say this to their face? Because for me when I see something truly wrong I speak up. If I see a man smack a woman, or a parent beat their kid, or a bully tease another kid I speak up. Because these things are wrong. If you aren't willing to speak up and approach one of these racists face to face than maybe subconsciously you are aware that you are wrong here and wouldn't want to caught up in a publicly humiliating situation.

Good video by the way orathic. Here is my issue with what you are saying, the video calls race a social construct not cultural. Just because something is a construct of something doesn't make it that thing. If I build a bridge the bridge doesn't become a part of me or earn the same rights as me. The bridge is identified as a construct of me but wholly separate from me. Culture; being the customs, arts, and social institutions of a particular group of people or nation is different entirely from race (a group or set of people with common features and descended from common ancestors.). These concepts are inherently connected but not dependent on each other. You can have a person who identifies culturally with sub-Saharan African culture but who's blonde hair, blue eyes, and Scandinavian ancestry prevents them from identifying as African. This person would be offended if someone misused his religion, a religion grounded and created in Africa; and would take offense to someone making fun of his culture but would not be personally offended to see black-face. This is why I think "racist" does not describe what a person committing cultural appropriation is actually doing.

"If you aren't willing to speak up and approach one of these racists face to face than maybe subconsciously you are aware that you are wrong here and wouldn't want to caught up in a publicly humiliating situation."

Or you simply aren't *certain* due to lack of information. The criteria I outlined are highly individual and situational, and so I'd have to be pretty familiar with the individual/situation to intervene. Not really the same as seeing people hit others in a social context, which is broadly wrong. (It's interesting, though, that we acknowledge the gendered power dynamic of a man hitting a woman, despite being so resistant to the idea that cultural power dynamics might influence the ethics of cultural borrowing. Is it more situational when a woman hits a man? What happens when we examine bystander intervention in that scenario?)

@Leth- I used man hitting a woman as an example; I would intervene should a woman hit a man. Physical violence is never okay.

Glad to clear that up, then.

What was the purpose of this thread? To fulminate from the safety of an almost entirely white message board about the phantom menace of political correctness, to the thunderous applause of your fellow white message board posters? To impugn the motives of anybody who disagrees with you as being either self-loathing/brainwashed or needing to feel powerful? To refuse to take seriously any notion that power and exploitation come into play when dealing with complicated issues like race and culture?

Mission accomplished, I guess.

Spyman, obviously the "church" of political correctness is having a hard time purging anybody whatsoever, as overt racism since 2008 has been broadly accepted by the lion's share of white people in America, at the very least, and I dare say Europe as well judging by the way refugees, racial minorities, and Romanies are treated.

You're delusional, Putin. Delusional and utterly ignorant of the real world or even the WebDip community.

Delusional? Your persistent mocking/attacking of black people on here is sort of a milquetoast version of what is said every day all over social media, television, radio, chain emails by legions of white people. It is why our politics are the way they are. The notion that people who complain about white people who appropriate black culture for their own entertainment are the problem is a giant joke, but not surprising coming from the ranks of Australian liberals.

As for the webdip community, you haven't exactly been here a long time. I know it doesn't take long for a conservative to conjure up fantasies of being 'oppressed' for abusing others, but this thread is indicative of the kind of obtuseness forum posters here have when it comes to issues of privilege.

"this thread is indicative of the kind of obtuseness forum posters here have when it comes to issues of privilege."

That's nice coming from a narrow-minded bigot.

What was the purpose of this thread? [...] To refuse to take seriously any notion that power and exploitation come into play when dealing with complicated issues like race and culture?

You are grossly distorting my position. It seems you are offended that I should even raise the question in the first place. I am genuinely interested in a discussion, but so far it has mostly been orathaic making a solid case for the affirmative. And I have tried to answer his points.

My original question was is it racist for white people to wear dreads. What guiding principle could lead to us to such a position, and can that guiding principle be applied sensibly and consistently without resulting in some sort of absurdity almost no one would agree with.

My position has been the following:
1. No it is not racist for white people to wear dreads.
2. The proposition is absurd.
3. Just because someone claims to be offended by something does not mean that their position should be automatically respected or agreed without question, even if that person is a member of an oppressed minority.
4. This is an example political correctness taken too far. There are many "politically correct" position that I agree with; however this is not one of them.

The following is not my position...
To use your words... To refuse to take seriously any notion that power and exploitation come into play when dealing with complicated issues like race and culture?

Nothing I have said implies anything of the sort.

Putin this was your original point:
"Do people who mock others get to determine if their targets should be offended?"

Which I think implies that white people wearing dreads is a mockery of black people. Either that or it was just a non sequitur. The statement was bit vague and has left me unsure of where you stand on the original question.

So let's clear that point up with a few questions.

Putin33:
Do you think it is racist for white people to wear dreads?
If yes... well you can explain why if you feel like it. But otherwise if you think this truth is self-evident you may leave it at that if you choose.
If yes... is it racist for white people to play the blues? If no to this question what is this different?
If no...
Do you think it is wrong for white people to wear dreads because some black people are offended by white people wearing dreads?
If yes... if you feel like you can explain why you think that is a sufficient reason.

@spyman

It's 100% about the attitude with which such things are adopted. That's why it's power relations that matter, because that's what influences the attitude.

White people are usually going to be wearing dreads because they are fetishizing a culture they don't understand. However, when I was in Jamaica I did meet white rastas who had gone the distance and integrated into the community there. That, I feel, is different. But if it's just your local stoner doing it because he thinks it looks cool? That's appropriation.

It doesn't just apply to skin color. Rich whites can appropriate things from poor white working class culture - they do it all the time. 90% of hipster fashion is this.

"What was the purpose of this thread? To fulminate from the safety of an almost entirely white message board about the phantom menace of political correctness, to the thunderous applause of your fellow white message board posters? To impugn the motives of anybody who disagrees with you as being either self-loathing/brainwashed or needing to feel powerful? To refuse to take seriously any notion that power and exploitation come into play when dealing with complicated issues like race and culture?"

That's what all the political posts here have become. It's a just white-boy regressive masturbatorium lol