and @leon: so you're also saying that the bank bailout (paid for by the american citizens) was wrong?

Not this generation, but things are improving. 1 in 3 Africans are considered part of the middle class, and 6 of the 10 fastest growing economies are in Africa. A child born on a farm might move to a city and become a janitor as in my previous example and rise from there.

"nonono, you didn't read my question. i was asking if EVERY person can get rich. EVERY person. on the whole planet. even the three year old kid in africa starving to death."

Potentially, yes. If it were not for the problem of environmental degradation, given ever increasing technology, I think it would inevitable that eventually future peoples of Earth will be far wealthier than what is considered comfortable in the west today.

But we have quite a few obstacles to overcome before this becomes this is realized. The biggest looming problem is climate change. Population growth is still an issue, but at least the rate of increase is starting fall. Then there is the risk of potentially catastrophic future wars.

"Not this generation, but things are improving."

so the kid has to die, but in a few generations, someone there might make it? you must be fun at parties.

"Putin, Those visionaries broke no law."

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/may/20/wall-street-role-financial-crisis

You're not in favor of free market capitalism because that would entail at least people being honest about information and not committing fraud, you're just a servile propagandist of the rich and powerful.

"Almost all the prospectuses and sales material on mortgage-backed bonds sold from 2005 until 2007 were a compound of falsehoods. And as the bubble peaked and started to collapse, executives repeatedly lied about their companies' financial condition. In some cases, they also concealed other material information, such as the extent to which executives were selling or hedging their own stock holdings because they knew their firms were about to collapse.

In some cases, we have evidence of senior executive knowledge of and involvement in misrepresentations. For example, quarterly presentations to investors are nearly always made by the CEO or chief financial officer of the firm; if lies were told in these presentations, or if material facts were omitted, the responsibility lies with senior management. In other cases, such as Bear Stearns, we have evidence from civil lawsuits that senior executives were directly involved in selling securities whose prospectuses allegedly contained lies and omissions."

"so the kid has to die, but in a few generations, someone there might make it? you must be fun at parties."

Well we need to be realistic. It would nice if extreme poverty were to disappear by the end of this year, but its not going to happen. What leon1122 is actually optimistic. Potentially things could get worse before they get better, especially for particularly trouble parts of the world.

Putin, we are talking about welfare. I still find it hard to understand how slavery relates to it. And the fact that Africans practice slavery at the time, no matter how small the scale, means that they didn't consider is as morally despicable as we consider it today. I by no means condone a return to slavery.

SunRa, I keep hearing about these systems, but systems are only as strong as society wants them to be. Please give me some concrete examples.

kasimax, please show me the laws they broke.

Putin, it is only fair that one is able to decide where one's money goes after death.

kasimax, yes I believe economies should be allowed to run their natural course without government intervention.

I wasn't relating slavery to welfare. I was saying that capitalism is built on slavery and cannot survive without it.

kasimax, yes, Africa needs time to develop a domestic economy following their independence from colonialism. With time, their standards of living will eventually improve.

Putin, if they were indeed lying, then someone ought to have sued them. That is no reason to take the money of honest rich businessmen to give to the sleazy.

"I wasn't relating slavery to welfare. I was saying that capitalism is built on slavery and cannot survive without it."

When you use the term "slavery" do you mean chattel slavery or are do you mean in it in a metaphorical way?

I think a better case could be made for the demise of chattel slavery that corresponds closely with the growth of modern capitalism. Technological and economic developments of the past 200 years has made chattel slavery obsolete.

Capitalism survived perfectly fine without slavery during the latter part of the 19th century. Slavery today is illegal and small, and capitalism would survive perfectly fine without it.

"Putin, if they were indeed lying, then someone ought to have sued them"

Yes, indeed they should have. But our government is in the thrall of the financial industry. This whole discussion started because you insisted that if they committed any wrongdoing, they would have gone to jail. False.

"When you use the term "slavery" do you mean chattel slavery or are do you mean in it in a metaphorical way?"

I mean chattel slavery historically and other forms of slavery. I am not speaking metaphorically at all. We have an estimated 27 million slaves in the world. Most of them actually for menial labor other than sex. The state I live is in a hub of the slave trade in America, particularly in Toledo. Add to that the condition of widespread indentured servitude and starvation wages, sweat shops, etc.

https://streetvibes.wordpress.com/2010/04/13/ohio-is-a-slave-market/

Capitalism could not survive without it. If capitalists paid human beings living wages the entire system would collapse.

The ignorance around slavery today is pretty astonishing.

What is the alternative to captialism? A command economy? It's just not a viable alternative. If America for example were to switch to a command economy most Americans would be far worse off.

Maybe this is a false dichotomy. What other alternatives to capitalism are there?

"We have an estimated 27 million slaves in the world. Most of them actually for menial labor other than sex. "

As a percentage of world population can name an era when the proportion of enslaved people was lower than now?

tyo.. can *you name an era when the proportion of enslaved people was lower than now?

"Capitalism survived perfectly fine without slavery during the latter part of the 19th century"

Chattel slavery was still legal in much of the Americas. The bulk of the slave economy was actually in the Americas. Brazil and Cuba didn't abolish slavery until the late 1800s.

This discussion started why I stated social darwinism is a good thing. Anyways, the government does sue banks, etc. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/21/bofa-settlement_n_5697470.html)

Chattel slavery would decrease if the minimum wage was removed so that oversea slaves would become less competitive.

*when I stated

"As a percentage of world population can name an era when the proportion of enslaved people was lower than now?"

I have no idea and have no idea how to get those stats. I do know that the sheer number of slaves is larger than ever in the history of the world. And that industrial production relies overwhelmingly on sweatshop style labor practices in order to be profitable. Unregulated globalized trade is destroying any gains made in living conditions due to technology in the past 200 years. Additionally technology is wiping out labor intensive industries entirely or turning them into industries dependent on part time work and underemployed people. It is responsible for the elimination of middle class jobs.A great example is instagram and the camera/film industry. How many workers did Kodak used to employ? How many does instagram employ?

"Chattel slavery would decrease if the minimum wage was removed so that oversea slaves would become less competitive."

You're hilarious. Slavery is a worldwide problem, many countries pay their workers next to nothing. Somehow this Randroid theory of yours isn't working.

The sheer number is unimportant compared to percentage. The probability that I would become a slave if I were born today is nothing comparable to past times. Sweatshop wages, however horrible you make them out to be, are still higher than they would have been working on a farm. Technology is great for workers. Employers will have money that they used to pay manual laborers with that can now be used to pay white collar workers.

Next to nothing is still more than they would otherwise have earned on a farm.

"What is the alternative to captialism? A command economy? It's just not a viable alternative. If America for example were to switch to a command economy most Americans would be far worse off."

This is so much false. Especially with the dollar being the international reserve currency there is quite literally nothing restricting the government's capacity to direct and control investment to the point of full employment with living wages. With a command economy our transportation infrastructure could be overhauled overnight. Thousands could go to work in renewable energies overnight. Thousands of teachers and doctors could be employed and paid decent salaries. The state could make intensive investments in culture and the arts so we don't have to watch the same crap movies produced by Hollywood. The possibilities are endless. In a poor country a command economy can struggle because it doesn't have the financial and resource flexibility a rich country like America has.

in the future, when technology has improved to the point where a robot is performing every manual task, how many white collar workers will be hanging out getting paid oodles of cash to watch robots move around? this is such a fantasy.
also I work on a farm and make a six figure income. i prefer this to working in a sweatshop.

If everyone is guaranteed employment, what incentive do they have to actually work. If I were a factory worker, why should I make 1000 shirts per day if I would still be employed making 500 shirts per day?

In a market economy the government has to bribe investors to make investments in the areas that are needed with tax incentives. A government has to slash taxes and services in order to beg and plead for industry to stay. In a command economy the decision is made by a central authority and capital and labor go to where they are needed and most productive.

In a world where robots perform every task, then no one would have to work. Indeed, that would be utopia. And if you earn more on a farm, that's great for you. That is not the case in 3rd world countries.

....except that the corporations who control the robots would have no reason to employ or give resources to human people, according to your supply side utopia.