Vash is probably a Town PR non Mason. his early attempt to dissaude cult and masons from converting free agents does strike me as counter to being traitor. It felt like he was directing Masons to seek out PR's among Mafia as opposed to Traitor Free Agency. He even stated it was against the spirit of the game to convert people who clamor willingness to be converted. Why would any traitor care if they get converted or not? I guess it just struck me as a strange reason to put in a vote for me over that.

He isnt cult, but he doesnt seem like hes fighting on the same side as us fellow Traitors either.

##Vote Vash

@bo: are you really saying you're not a Traitor???

@Cult, vote Bo
@Mafia, vote Bo
@Traitors, vote Bo
@Town PRs and Masons, you might as well bus Bo to avoid blowing your cover.

@Everyone, vote End.

**GM NOTE**
@Vashta: Nothing. If the masons recruited more masons then the masons will still exist. If there were only two masons (the original two) and they both die then the masons are all dead.

@bb: No, I am a traitor. It's just that being a "free agent" and forming alliance while superficially make sense, are not viable in the long term.

As usual day 1 is stupid and bo seems to have town (scum? team x-files?) slipped.

How about an ##end vote Chaqa?

@Chaqa is that really what we think happened here? not just terminology confusion. We are after all playing that Town is the bad guys here....

@bb: Yup. Town is bad. Mafia is good. Cult is bad. This may (and I mean may) change in the future based on recruitment and deaths, but for the first couple days....yes that is how it is.

yea but are we assuming that Bo just fucked up that badly?

@bb: Yup. He has done it plenty times before. He responded to your defense of him by doubling down on what he said.

hmmm well if he is a fellow traitor he wouldnt give a fuck about dying so thats really weird.

##Vote No one

for the moment I accept your answer in defense of yourself however.

Anyway. Allow me to give a deeper explanation for why the "free agent" thing is fucking stupid as a traitor:
1. You have (at best) about a 2/17 chance of being recruited by the cult OR masons tonight. This chance gets slightly higher as time goes on, but overall, it is likely for you to be converted as opposed to anyone else and as such should probably work to eliminate those groups.
2. If you choose this strategy, you have to be tryign it with the intention of you changing sides, and this makes it optimal for you to be killed. Why is this, well...
If the cultists AND masons try to recruit you, you die (even when only one initially does this and the other does it later). You also have a higher chance of being singled out as someone who flipped by the mafia PRs, who now have good reason to assume you may be on another team, and thus kill you.

So really, it's just dumb bb, it really is.

*is unlikely for you to be converted

Any explanation bo?

Bo: "People that say there is little to discuss on the first day catch my eye right off the bat because, even if there is little to discuss on the first day, there is plenty to be learned about the first day later. We're looking at a gang of people who don't know who everyone else is, but then there are three who have more knowledge than the rest of us. That's what we look for. Day 1 is the best day where you can look back and see that kind of thing."

Well thats a really weird thing to say considering theres 4 players who can convert. Words on D1 mean jack shit in this setup. Anyone can become anyone else. In this case Balki is actually right. Think about the fact that the Maf PR's also dont know who the real traitors are either. So going back and re-reading things to find clears among the talkers of D1 is stupid.

@Vash, Ill play for whatever side im on 100% either way. And if I were a Maf PR I wouldnt be inviting conversion or lynching to myself. If I were town I would absolutely not be inviting a visit from the Masons. And if I were cult I would be risking an awful lot. Dumb as you think it may be, it makes me a clear for D1 at least and provides me a rare opportunity to be instrumental in leading a lynch. D2 I am wilful to sac myself and if I go back and contradict this later, then well, you should make note. I may survive to D2 and avoid being converted simply because I have put a target on myself.

Hmm, ##VOTE bo

Part of me thinks it's a reaction test and he's not that stupid, but on the other hand, bo's the worst, so maybe he is that stupid. He certainly seems like the best lynch target at least until he explains, and the explanation better be damn good.


Beyond that, it's important that we think of the Mafia as the "town" and the town as the "scum" right now. Playing as a free agent or playing in the interests of another faction in the hopes that they'll convert you is both against your win condition and pretty dumb even if that weren't the case, as Vash noted above. This game has a lot of bells and whistles, but really we're just a town with a ton of power roles who can talk to each other and the cult and town are just two mafia teams with really powerful powers to counteract ours. The twist doesn't really take effect until one team is larger than us and the roles flip, but we shouldn't really be concerning ourselves heavily with it right now.

This leads me to Balki. He's a smart guy. His strategy suggestions generally have a uclabbian level of correctness. He should have figured this shit out. Instead he's advocating an informationless D1 lynch. That's bad. I think he's scum.

@brainbomb, we get it. You're a dumb traitor. Now stop with this shit. It's against your win condition as it is currently and it's against your chances of actually winning as well.

OK, this setup is even more complicated than I first thought. I have never played reverse mafia and I have never played with cults or masons before. I am having trouble wrapping my head around changing player alignments. That can be worried about later though.

One thing is true today though, 17/19 players would like to see a cult leader lynched today. So really on D1, it's not that different than the D1 of any other game we've played, except that there are only 2 players that would fit the desired lynch profile. This makes me concerned about Balki's strong desire to hammer-end. One could argue that it would be in a Cult Leader's best interest to advocate a random lynch given the stacked odds against hitting a cult leader. Balki doesn't advocate a random lynch though, he advocated the last poster. Last poster lynch is more in the interest of a cult leader than random lynch when he has already posted, and is hugely so if the other cult leader has already posted. Cult leaders know who each other are and therefore if the co-cult leader has posted or not yet. If this is true here, if Balki is a cult leader and knows his cult leader partner has already posted, no matter who posts last and gets lynched, Balki and his co-cult leader are safe.

Any response Balki?

@ghug I think he just misspoke. There is actually a bit of a terminological learning curve here.

@ghug, im clear. my win condition is supposed to be the same as yours. dont waste your breath.

Good Morning guys !!! its 1pm at my side and i'm sorry i post late )) thats what hapeens when living on the other side of the planet

can i have an update on who is voted ?

Quite an interesting setup. Who are the good guys here? Besides me of course. Are people claiming Traitor instead of VT a la Jeff Kuta here? Or is that just a brainbomb thing?

confirmed good guys: brainbomb

that is all.

If someone becomes a cult member, does his win condition change?