Sorry Krellin - you're an ass and I don't like you, but I genuinely made an error there for which I apologise.

Your forgiven Jennie.

I mean Jamie.

Phone autocorrect. Did my phone make a Freudian slip?

Your phone is transgender.

Disclaimer: I believe just about everything can be joked about, so not making transgender jokes would be discriminating based on perceived weakness. I don't perceive them as weak, hence I joke about them.

@Wjessop and all

Teenagers do get naked in the locker room. In America, or at least the public school I attended, when changing for the swimming block of PE, which is about 6 weeks, we change into our swimwear, which requires getting naked.

My phone is transgender, but it ALWAYS is covered up. HA!

I also feel the urge to say:

Welcome back krellin! You're the mad voice of sound reasoning :-)

Is temporary. I'll be silenced soon no doubt for being non-PC.

krellin, you bring up a good example. Lila wants to use the girls changing room, just like you want to make controversial posts on this site. She can use the Male changing room or the private room, just as you can choose not to post, or post in other sites.

Controversial posts are encouraged in social debate to foster intellectual discourse. Gender-based locker rooms are specifically designed to DISCOURAGE mixing genders in privacy of a changing room.

Therefore your attempt to try to diminish my arguments based upon my behavior in this discussion completely fails.... And actually backfires.

Further, there us NOTHING controversial about my opinions. In fact, they are held in common with the majority of Americans - the country in which this false controversy exists.

The PERCEPTION that my statements are controversial only exists within biased fringe youth thinking, and in political ideologues and there minority-opinion media mouthpieces. But most Americans do NOT think a BOY belongs in the girls locker room... No matter what delusional belief she professes to hold.

"Is temporary. I'll be silenced soon no doubt for being non-PC." The fact that you would be silenced for controversial posts is the thing. Plenty of people can post such things, being silenced on the forum by going to far is a choice. That is the point I had intended to make, my apologies for the perceived attack.

BTW where did you get your majority opinion? The last poll stats I looked at had LGBT support between 53 (around the lowest in a poll) and 73(one of the higher values). Where is your proof that the majority (51 is majority, correct?) of people share your belief, or am I misunderstanding your statement to be your discussing the lockerroom situation in particular? If I am misunderstanding it, I still don't see any stats for it being the majority opinion, and if it was the majority opinion, surely there wouldn't be so much backlash against it.

NVM, this is the latest one I could find http://www.cbsnews.com/news/cbs-news-poll-transgender-kids-and-school-bathrooms/ which shows 59 against. I imagine this number has changed in the last year though, so it may no longer be the polled majority opinion.

I don't think this case is one of discrimination or one set of people having more rights than the next. It is simply a matter of good design v bad design. A good designer would design a locker room so that anyone who wanted privacy could get changed without anyone invading their privacy and also provide a more communal room where people who are less concerned about their privacy can change, and chat and do whatever. I think some young people who are experiencing puberty at a different time to their peers may want additional privacy on occasions, as might a cancer sufferer who doesn't want to remove a wig in public to replace it with a swimming cap or someone with a rash or skin condition. Good design would design for everyone (or most everyone) and not result in anyone being uncomfortable about their privacy.

A change of design won't force people to accept transgender people, nor should it seek to - it should seek to accommodate everyone.

I accept that good design may cost more, particularly if it is retro rather than designed when building was built. It may be that schools decide not to spend money on a remodelling of locker rooms and spend money on a new art department or whatever - that's fine as long as they think about the cost/benefit of changing things and make a decision on where to allocate resources.

Espi - whatever perverse biased pole toy are looking at, regardless... What is "support for lgbt"? What? Like... Sure, we won't kill them? Uh.... They should be allowed to have jobs?

I DEFY you to find a pole that says the majority of Americans think BOYS belong in girls locker room. THAT is the discussion at hand, not " do you 'support' (whatever that means) lgbt"

Most people say, "I don't give a shit any more of you want to marry X". That is far different from saying KKpeople think anyone can use any restroom or bathroom they want.

The women in my wife office openly revolted when a suggestion was made to the effect at her office. Women of ALL political stripes wanted NOTHING to do with MEN in their bathroom, regardless of their feelings in lgbt " rights" issues.

Ideological debated have this nasty tendency to fall apart when cocks show up in the women's room.

And since this is primarily a Youth-filled, male dominated, politically-lefy-leaning forum, I'll trust very few of you have talked to real FEMALES in the real world and asked their opinion on having BOYS WIJ PENISES in their bathrooms and locker rooms.

Thus, most of you reside in the safe Paradise of ideological debate, without having tov suffer the consequences of the decisions toot wish to foist YPON OTHERS.

My teen daughters want NOTHING to do with this, nor do the overwhelming majority of their friends, many of whom DO support gay marriage (as do I... And pologymy....I juay don't give a fuck).

Read my second post krellin. The poll (not pole) says that women are more in favor of 'boys' in their bathrooms and locker rooms then men are, so it looks like you made a very general statement which you believe to be fully correct, and didn't realize that you got some stuff wrong.

Generally speaking, women are waaay more receptive toward such things, I have met more allies that are women, then men. Most of the men I know who are allies, were heavily influenced to do so by women. This is of course not always the case.

Forgot one point, you keep stating that this is a liberal thing, according to CBS and 1016 adults, this is not the case as not all liberals agreed with locker room sharing. If you would like to do some research into this poll to see how legitimate it is (as the poll agrees mostly with you, I don't know why you would want to refute it) I would love to have a conversation about that.

BTW krellin, making statements at someone is not having a conversation with someone, which I imagine is why people tend to get annoyed with you.

Just to throw it out there; I know plenty of boys whom dream of nothing more than getting into the girls change rooms. In fact many American teen movies have that as a central theam! Even the reverse is played out.
The difference between dreams (fantasy) and reality is perhaps the debate topic. Catering for minority groups in infrastructure as discussed and keeping "everyone" happy is impossible. Individuals need to respect others ideals and beliefs but not at the expense of the majority or the detriment of others.
I'd also go on to say that infrastructure struggles to provide adequate facilities to disabled people so will fail more with this consideration.

I wonder if those women are saying they're okay with it because they are accused of being bullies and unaccepting transphobes if they don't.

Here is the link to pdf with breakdowns from the poll Espi cited. Question was phrased as should transgender student use locker rooms of their birth gender or their preferred gender.

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/CBSNewsPoll_Mar2014b_Transgender.pdf

Conservatives selected birth gender 69-16%, Liberals selected birth gender 50-42%, Men selected birth gender 62-23%, and Women selected birth gender 56-29 % (the remaining percentages selected "not sure/don't know").

The "preferred gender" option did best among 18-29 year-olds, but even they selected birth gender by a 49-35 margin.

"BTW krellin, making statements at someone is not having a conversation with someone, which I imagine is why people tend to get annoyed with you."

Bahh....childish idiotic reason to say you don't agree or understand a persons argument. The fall-back excuse of the intellectually dishonest.

Just as claiming genetic polling data applies to specific incidents. I.e. you are full of shit and have no data to support your claim.

Krellin i asked you to either find more data or prove that the poll was stupid. The poll backed up the majority of your claim so i dont see your problem with it. I understand your argument but cant help but compare you to people i used to know that are illogical, self centered and who will amount to very little in the future.i hate that i view you this way so please try to change my mind.

Espi, as you yourself admit the poll basically did back up what Krellin said though. Conservatives favored using birth gender by over a 4-1 margin whereas liberals were much closer to an even split (though even they favored using birth gender). And his original claim was that the majority agreed with him and this poll bears that out and then some (every group, even liberals and even the young favored using birth gender). I don't get why you think he is obligated to prove that the poll is stupid. The fact that there is not unanimous opposition to his stance by liberals or unanimous agreement with his stance by conservatives does not mean it is a mis-characterization for him to call the stance a liberal position.

He said that he didnt think the poll was good, which i am trying to understand.

I'd just like to say, even if some people in the school are ok with it, or even support it, their will shoudl not be a good enough reason to force the decision onto the rest of the people who woudl have to deal with it. Unless all people who already had a right to be in the class were ok with it, it should not be allowed.

I will amount to very little? Lol. I'm half-assed passing attention to a complete troll thread while making very good money.... I think I'm doing quite well for myself, than you very much. Lol.

I'm illogical because I reject perverse morality? Or because I reject biased polling data? For every pool there is a pollster with an agenda.

What do toy want to prove? I'll find a pool that proves it.

I know this... Girls in high school, and moist of their parents, have no desire for a mentally ill BOY getting naked in their locker room. Oh sure...purely anecdotal data.... And a hell of a lot more REAL data than opinion polls that people answer with just as often against their opinion so as to not appear un-PC.

Ask a kid openly what they think about (pick your very public social issue) and most will answer what the poplar public opinion is, because they don't want to be viewed as an outsider with word beliefs.

Ask same kids in total privacy and honesty, and toy get a different answer.

Give a kid a "private survey" to get "honest" answers and they will still lie, because they don't believe it's private half the time.

If pills worked, elections works never have "suprise" results.

This is why I dislike these discussions. Because they always devolve into two people from the extreme opposite sides of the spectrum name calling. Why can't he just have his opinion, Espi? Why is he going to amount to little in the future just because he has a different opinion than you. Krellin, why is his opinion idiotic?