just shut the fuck up Obi

this is like the graveyard showdown at the end of "the good, the bad, and the stupid"

"notice comrade has yet to address his Idol's murder of Jews and attempted destruction of Russian Jewish culture by the hangman's noose."

I do, which is why I was for once taking your side.......

But the better part of valor being discretion, and discretion telling me there's no fair choice between a self-important prick who champions a murderous dictator and a man who denies genocides in the Bible and is perfectly OK alternating between pissing on the guy trying to bury the hachet and then going on to rant about the other guy in the room (it's such a wonder why you don't get more help, Santa, hm, now why is that...you're such a warm, welcoming guy who'd NEVER hold a grudge!)...

Bye!

"this is like the graveyard showdown at the end of "the good, the bad, and the stupid"

I agree--

Shame you had to cast yourself as the Stupid, though (better than Putin as the Bad at least...)

"notice comrade has yet to address his Idol's murder of Jews and attempted destruction of Russian Jewish culture by the hangman's noose. Hypocrite."

Murder, what murder? They were released as you even said. Vovsi - released. Vinogradov - released. Etc, etc.

And as western sources even claim, Stalin initially did not believe the allegations against certain doctors for applying incorrect medicine in order to kill them. So the notion that this a pre-planned assault on Jews is disputed by western scholars. The evidence of wrongdoing became pretty evident however.

See Ian Grey, Stalin: Man of History, p 461.

Stalin himself drafted letters to be published distinguishing between the JOINT cells and Jewish Soviet citizens who were loyal to the USSR. The notion that the same Soviet leadership who implored the UN to recognize Israel in 1948 while the West demurred is preposterous.

But keep clinging to that as an excuse as to why you continue to support western aggression worldwide and believe Nazi lies about the Red Army.

*that the same Soviet leadership that implored the recognition of Israel would be anti-Semitic is preposterous.

"But the better part of valor being discretion, and discretion telling me there's no fair choice between a self-important prick who champions a murderous dictator "

This coming from someone who just recently called for the expulsion of all non-Jews from Israel and cheers on jihadist cannibals in Syria. Your human rights credentials are non-existent. They never existed to begin with.

And Santa that human rights hero is the same person who believes the Japanese got what they deserved when they got nuked. Another strike for anti-racism, there. You two are complete jokes.

"This coming from someone who just recently called for the expulsion of all non-Jews from Israel and cheers on jihadist cannibals in Syria."

I said nothing of the sort, you utter liar.

QUOTE IT.

QUOTE IT where I called for not just Israel being a Jewish state...

QUOTE IT where I SPECIFICALLY call for the "expulsion of all non-Jews from Israel."

QUOTE IT......

OH, that's right. You can't.

Because for someone who says *I* have no human rights cred...

Well, at least I'm not named after an internationally-condemned murderous dictator who treats the LGBT community of his nation like scum.

""They already have a state, so what is the point of demanding the recognition of its Jewishness, except to alienate the Arab minority and piss off the PLO before talks even begin?"

1. I've already said that's part of the diplomatic point, for sure, I don't deny that.

2. The point is--mainly--to encourage Palestinians to A. emigrate to a new Palestine (presumably because they won't want to live in a Jewish State that's formally recognized as such), B. Deny the right of return (because Israel knows better than anyone what happens when millions of past occupants come back to their old stomping grounds bearing guns), and C. To respond to the idea in the Muslim world that land that was once Muslim is then always-rightfully Muslim."

You openly applaud Israel declared Jewish so all non-Jews will pick up and leave. You said it right here.

That is NOT THE SAME AS *EXPULSION.*

I'm sorry, I know literature isn't your thing, Putin--or complexity, for that matter--but do try and at least learn the English language if you're going to puke it up all over half of the forums...

Encouraging Palestinians to emigrate to a new state--one they WANT, I might add--is NOT the same as an at-gunpoint-"leave-or-we'll-shoot" EXPULSION.

Or do you equate firemen encouraging people to evacuate their homes with a great government expulsion of the area?

...Given your propensity for bashing anyone and everyone and your complete mangling of the English language--not to mention your willful ignorance of so many of its great classics, but then, why read something nuanced when you can shout dogmatic slogans at others?--I wouldn't be surprised.

How reassuring. You want Israel to be free of those pesky Arabs, but you don't want to shoot them, just 'encourage them to leave'. My mistake.

I'm with.Putin on Israel, and apparently I'm the only one willing to admit that the Ukraine situation has become very confusing.

But at it's core, is it not as simple as riots in Ukraine causing Russia to stand ready to intervene, should it be needed? I mean, it's not like their army has something better to do, so why not?

Does that mean they're picking sides already as a country? It seems to me that only the people in Ukraine actively pick a side, often picking between Europe and Russia.

Just because many people in Ukraine pick either Russia or Europe as a side doesn't mean Europe and/or Russia pick their respective supporters in Ukraine as a side... Does it?

Actually, my newspaper just told me that Russia admitted to actually have entered Ukraine. If that's true, I don't particularly like it, especially if the president considers it an armed invasion, which seems like it. I don't know how genuine that is though. I think Russia is pushing it now, but not too severely. I don't know the exact agreements of course though.

Obi - your support for encouraging people to leave a Jewish state makes no sense unless your also want to sign up to the UK's BNP's policy of voluntary repatriation. I'll let you google it.

...The Palestinians WANT A STATE.

Israel gives them a state...and they will go to said state, yes?

I think THAT form of "encouragement"--ie, "Hey, remember that Peace Process people have been crying for on BOTH sides for 25 years? Congrats, we finally acted like adults, made peace and you have the state you deserve...so you'll certainly want to go to said state instead of staying in the place you have, by your own admission, likened to a miserable ghetto, yes?"--would be welcomed, yes?

Or are you really suggesting that they'll need (or want) more encouragement to leave places like Gaza when--again--they hate and HAVE hated such a place for DECADES?

It would be a gradual transition, Obi. Everyone knows that.

"You want Israel to be free of those pesky Arabs"

1. Never said that,
2. Wanting it to be a Jewish state =/= as wanting no Arabs there,
3. A large population of the Arab population doesn't LIKE IT THERE,
4. They want an Arabic/Islamic state, so
5. Create said State of Palestine (and NOT a protectorate...ask the British how well setting up protectorates in the Middle East turns out) and
6. Watch them flock to the place they've wanted for, oh, close to 70 years or so, rather than stay in Gaza where conditions are terrible due to Hamas AND Israel's uber-security, and
7. We can all have a big party to celebrate that not everyone in the world thinks in quite as black-and-white a way as you.

"It would be a gradual transition, Obi. Everyone knows that."

I don't necessarily disagree, but how is that statement intended here?

You can encourage someone to go to the state you just created for them and not expect them to leave that very day, you know...

I DO think the overwhelmingly vast majority of Palestinians WOULD move to that new state, though, it's not as if it'll begin as a small minority, not when they have wanted and fought for their own state for 70 years...so what's wrong with running a few TV commercials,

"Hey, Palestinians! You've just won the Super Bowl, I mean, a brand new sovereign nation! Whaddya gonna do next!"
"We're going to Disneyla--er, getting the fuck out of the shithole known as the Gaza Strip!"

"3. A large population of the Arab population doesn't LIKE IT THERE,"

United States, 1950s/60s, replace "Arab" with "black" - have this discussion again and see which side you fall on.

If one of the concessions the Arab world would make given the creation of a Palestinian state would be to take the refugees off of Israel's hands, you wouldn't even have the problems you're talking about. The Arabs living in Israel, as in those that aren't refugees, are already living their by their own free will and are in all likelihood going to stay.

@obiwan Does your proposal include that Israel vacates the illegal settlements they've been building all over the place for the last couple of decades? Because if it doesn't then that's not much of a state you are offering the Palestinians and I doubt that they'd take the offer. And if it does then that might cause a heck of a political controversy, up to the point of rioting Zionists, in Israel.

Obi - I have no problem if Catholics in the north of Ireland want to move to the Republic of Ireland and likewise no problem if a third generation Pakistani in Wales wants to move to Pakistan. But I'd have a big problem if anyone tried to encourage their removal for whatever reason. The Catholics in the north of Ireland had some justified complaints about how they were governed and Pakstanis in wales sometimes face abuse. Suggesting that the answer is for them to leave is bizarre. If you ever have children and one is bullied, would you want the bullies removed from school, or would your answer be to remove your child?

"United States, 1950s/60s, replace "Arab" with "black" - have this discussion again and see which side you fall on."

In that instance, the blacks were wrongly persecuted peoples in their own state.'

In Israel, it's a state the Palestinians STILL claim is theirs...and I might add neither Martin Luther King NOR (to use maybe a more apt analogy) Gandhi in the wake of the British occupation resorted to rocketing innocent children and taking a "Kill men, women AND children of the enemy" approach.

The Palestinians aren't Gandhi's peacefully-protesting Indians and they certainly aren't MLK's crowd...

If anything, from that era, they're a mite closer to the Malcolm X crowd, and I think most of us can agree the MLK/Gandhi method is 1. far better and 2. is looked on far more kindly by history than the Malcolm X method.

"The Arabs living in Israel, as in those that aren't refugees, are already living their by their own free will and are in all likelihood going to stay."

I disagree--

Some will, but plenty will leave for a new Palestinian state...or why would they have asked for one for 70 years if they were content living where they were? If they're waiting for the overthrow of Israel, it ain't gonna happen, especially not with--in all likelihood--Israel sitting on a few WMDs...

"Does your proposal include that Israel vacates the illegal settlements they've been building all over the place for the last couple of decades?"

YES. YES. AND *YES.*

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, oscar--

Those settlements are Israel's single biggest foreign relations AND PR mistake in the last 20 years, or at least it could contend for that title.

It's stupid, it's aggressive, it's WRONG--and it needs to stop NOW.

"But I'd have a big problem if anyone tried to encourage their removal for whatever reason."

I feel we have a problem in wording--

There's a difference between encouraging "leaving" and encouraging "removal."

The former can--keyword "CAN," doesn't always happen this way--be done peacefully...you CAN peacefully advertise how nice the new Palestinian state is, and I still say many will leave for there, making both sides happier.

The latter is an at-gunpoint war crime, I DON'T support that, and I DON'T think even Israel's current regime is that stupid...I hope...

So, for the record--

TV commercials and pamphlets advertising "Hey! That state you wanted for 70 years? IT'S HERE! ...Well, as close as you're ever gonna get without starting World War Three, and Israel will help you with the move and reimburse you for the land, so sign up for New Palestine today!"

^What Obiwan endorses

"MOVE TO NEW PALESTINE OR WE BLOW YOUR HEADS OFF!"

^What Obiwan DOES NOT endorse

No, I'm not reading that.

In Israel, it's a state the Palestinians STILL claim is theirs...and I might add neither Martin Luther King NOR (to use maybe a more apt analogy) Gandhi in the wake of the British occupation resorted to rocketing innocent children and taking a "Kill men, women AND children of the enemy" approach.

The Palestinians aren't Gandhi's peacefully-protesting Indians and they certainly aren't MLK's crowd...

If anything, from that era, they're a mite closer to the Malcolm X crowd, and I think most of us can agree the MLK/Gandhi method is 1. far better and 2. is looked on far more kindly by history than the Malcolm X method.

..............

"The Arabs living in Israel, as in those that aren't refugees, are already living their by their own free will and are in all likelihood going to stay."

I disagree--

Some will, but plenty will leave for a new Palestinian state...or why would they have asked for one for 70 years if they were content living where they were? If they're waiting for the overthrow of Israel, it ain't gonna happen, especially not with--in all likelihood--Israel sitting on a few WMDs...

^The bo_sox-relevant parts

You seem to be operating under the assumption that every single person of Palestinian descent living in Israel wants to leave and is part of the movement for a Palestinian state.

Like anyone else, most Palestinians just want a peaceful life where they can provide for themselves and their family. Moving to a new Palestinian state will not be very attractive to Palestinians currently living in Israel unless it has a solid economy such that they can earn a decent living there. This means Israel would not just have to grant them a state, but also refrain from charging excessive import tariffs. Even then it will take quite a while before the economy of a new state starts to pick up.

I agree that without a Palestinian state there won't be a solution for the conflict in the region, but I'm sorry to say obiwan, it's simply not that easy a problem to solve. There are many more issues than just there being a Palestinian state or not.

And what about the murdered poets, were they released? Did stalin not say that the way to deal with Jews across Russia was to beat them with clubs? Some hero.

"You seem to be operating under the assumption that every single person of Palestinian descent living in Israel wants to leave and is part of the movement for a Palestinian state."

Not EVERYONE...but a majority.

"Moving to a new Palestinian state will not be very attractive to Palestinians currently living in Israel unless it has a solid economy such that they can earn a decent living there. This means Israel would not just have to grant them a state, but also refrain from charging excessive import tariffs. Even then it will take quite a while before the economy of a new state starts to pick up."

1. I think some will move for non-economic reasons, and
2. I agree to all of those points regarding Israel--Israel has to be a partner in this and not an adversary, so yes, they'd need to refrain from tariffs and such, I agree. I think Israel will be willing to do this in order to resolve the situation at hand...I hardly think they have more to gain by way of tariffs than they do by way of giving the Palestinians a state and finally seeing a cessation (or at least a dramatic increase) of rockets flying into Southern Israeli backyards.

"I agree that without a Palestinian state there won't be a solution for the conflict in the region, but I'm sorry to say obiwan, it's simply not that easy a problem to solve."

I don't claim it'll be easy--AT ALL.

All I'm saying is

1. It should happen and
2. PEACEFUL attempts to encourage Palestinians to move to their new state should be made

Neither of which Putin agrees with (er, our Putin...though I imagine the real Putin's none too high on the idea, either.)