Are you really calling all black people "gangstas"? Racist scum.

You don't think it's harmful to close out African Americans from higher education? Racist scum.

@Draugnar It is easy to get worked up about, but when you think about it, it's worse for the kid who gets in because of relaxed standards. It's not that bad to go to UCLA instead of Stanford, or Michigan instead of Cornell. It is bad to be in over your head at a university you just barely got into. All of this argument is about stuff that is at the threshold, and I think the assumption that the "elite" school is always the right choice is incorrect; in fact it's a kind of Ivy-league brand-fetishism. Plenty of people do undergrad at even (egads) Michigan State and go on to top-notch graduate schools.

I have no idea what the "right answer" here is, but I do think the argument is overheated.

@Putin
It IS harmful to close out African American students from higher education, but it's also rubbish to accept them just for being black. Acceptance should not at all be based on race, it should be based on your academic performance.
While a lot here have said that a diversity is beneficial (and i agree) admissions should not be based on creating a diverse environment.

"So are you calling yourself an opponent of racial diversity? Why on earth would anyone oppose racial diversity? I'd like an answer to that. "

I didn't call myself anything; I'm just asking questions here. I used the term "proponents of racial diversity" because I thought it the descriptor the people I wanted to query would best identify with, it had nothing to do with me.

Fair enough.

"Acceptance should not at all be based on race, it should be based on your academic performance."

Acceptance has never been based on race alone. It's one factor out of many. But if the African-American community has been either systematically denied access to educational attainment (through a variety of mechanisms) to such a degree that scoring 750 or higher in either category of the SAT is virtually impossible, then that needs to be addressed by acknowledging race as a criteria for admission. Not all performance is equal. If you come from a disadvantaged background, scoring the equivalent of someone who does not is a much greater achievement, because the odds are against you.

"While a lot here have said that a diversity is beneficial (and i agree) admissions should not be based on creating a diverse environment."

Then this idea that you find beneficial will never be obtained. What is the point of that?

@Putin33 "What is the point of that?"

I think he's suggesting that another route be found. How do you figure on "never be obtained"?

Look at the evidence from all the programs that scrapped AA programs with race as a criteria. You can't rely on the invisible hand of the market for this one.

@Putin33 Whatever. Affirmative action doesn't really have much effect on those that are denied admission, and probably on balance hurts those that are admitted through it because changing admissions policies doesn't make up for deficient preparation in K-12.

"Whatever. "

What do you mean, whatever? The evidence for the deleterious impact of scrapping race-based AA is abundant.

"Affirmative action doesn't really have much effect on those that are denied admission,"

On what basis do you say this?

"and probably on balance hurts those that are admitted through it because changing admissions policies doesn't make up for deficient preparation in K-12"

Hurts? How on earth does it hurt people to gain access to education?

There's not much difference in the long term between getting a degree at your most preferred school, and getting a degree and your second choice. Whereas starting off behind in a school you otherwise not have been admitted to is a disadvantage.

And please provide an alternative route to diversification, then, if you claim it's obtainable without AA.

Elite universities have terrific tutoring programs. And starting off in schools that one would otherwise not be admitted to doesn't seem to have had an adverse career impact on legacy students, let alone top African-American talent.

And it is a big difference between elite and second tier schools. In any case, blocking groups out from the highest level of educational attainment is a factor is unacceptable, period, and has long-term bad consequences.

As I said before, I don't have a great answer for that. I'm not even opposed to affirmative action. I just don't think admission to a university that a student isn't prepared to succeed at is any favor at all, nor is attending UCLA instead of Stanford any real loss for the person who didn't get admitted.

@Putin33

"Elite universities have terrific tutoring programs."

I think you accidentally included the word "terrific" there.

You're once again assuming that these students are "not prepared to succeed", another version of the "unqualified student" myth.

Do you have any proof that African-American students shut out of Stanford due to the scrapping of AA are gaining more access to UCLA? No, in fact admissions to UCLA have declined as well.

@Putin33 I'm talking about White and Asian students not admitted to Stanford and attending UCLA instead. It doesn't hurt that much. Anyway, some numbers on graduation rates would be good to know, but I'm too lazy to look them up.

My point is:

1) With affirmative action, a spot in next years class might go to someone with lower scores, due to affirmative action.
2) The person who didn't get that spot goes to their next-choice school. Hello UCLA and Michigan! It's not that big of a problem, I don't know why people get all worked up about it.
3) The person who was admitted through affirmative action, who otherwise would not be admitted, is (if the score criteria are considered to have some value) starting off at a disadvantage. Admission is a mixed-bag at best.

lol, my bad about New Haven btw, when I think of it I think Yale not... anything else

I think the point's the same, just substitute an actual really privileged area of the country

anyway! Interesting test stats Putin, didn't know this. Why do you think there's a discrepancy like that? Racism obviously still exists but I'm wondering how that specifically manifests in the discrepancy in test scores between students of different races but similar socioeconomic status.

"Why do you think there's a discrepancy like that? "

@Eden: The cumulative effect of centuries of racist policies, attitudes and institutions

Yes you've repeated the same points multiple times now and haven't really addressed the responses trying to get at where your assumptions come from.

@ PE - A multitude of reasons. Differences in quality of public schools in predominantly black communities, as a result of funding our education system through payroll taxes. Whites are more likely to have taken more advanced mathematics courses prior to taking the SATs - such as trig, geometry and calculus. Whites are more likely to have taken coursework in American literature and grammar than black students, as well as more likely to have taken honors courses in English. In general, white students are more likely to have taken honors courses across the board.

There are also cultural factors such as family structure, parenting, and peer ridicule which may play a role. There is also evidence that black students are more likely to be placed, from an early age, into a curriculum that is not college preparatory due to low expectations of achievement.

What does diversity mean?

Diversity means the composition of enrolled students varies along socioeconomic, ethnic, geographic, ability, linguistic, age, and gender lines. It incorporates a wide range of human experience and perspective stemming from social group membership and circumstances of birth.

Why not make the admission process random in that case?

Diversity in ability? Maybe we should start accepting the MR/DD kids into Yale. They represent diversity in ability. And the problem with AA is it exists at most every university and there is always some gangsta waiting in the wings to take a quakified student's spot.

Because, as I've *already said*, diversity doesn't occur "randomly". As I said before, where AA policies have been scrapped, diversity has declined. This is for reasons I also *already discussed*. Why do you always insist on asking repetitive questions and making repetitive points?

So, in a nutshell the argument is "schools are racist against blacks so make universities racist against whites and justice happens"?

No wonder racial politics is so screwed up in the US. Your system seems almost designed to give everyone a good reason to be pissed off with everyone else! Madness!