I'm naive? You have no idea what you're talking about. The American people pay the interest on that so-called "debt" because if we don't, the IRS will destroy your life.

It's ironic that in a capitalist society citizens don't regard state debt as REAL where as a bank loan is ...... I suppose if that helps then great, what about budget deficits, are they real or imaginary? What about trade balances, complete fiction?

There is not a unit of currency in circulation anywhere in the world -- dollar, euro, yuan, yen, etc., -- that is NOT debt. It's all debt. And worse still, it's fabricated debt.

You're right ultimately debt has no intrinsic value, only the value that someone will pay you for having that debt, this point is going to be explored in great depth over the next two years in Europe as govts. struggle to make their interest payments.
The problem is that when mug punters blindly paying into their pensions realize this where will that leave share prices, once the bubble bursts you will be able to buy companies like Facebook with monopoly money.
I think America should default on the debt it owns China, that might even things up a bit :-)

@Nigee - get off your high horse. Please. Nobody is required to pay for this site. That is actually the *purpose* of this site - a free gaming platform. Also, the rest of the world is in debt, not just the United States. Several African nations have gone bankrupt in the last few years, half of SE Asia defaulted at the end of the 1990s, as did Argentina and Russia. Belize just defaulted on its debt, and Greece may soon do the same. The world is in debt, not just the US

And if we default on the debt we owe China, that's about 6% of our debt....yay.

We're 17 trillion in the red. I think I speak for most Americans when I say that every option, including default, is on the table at this point.

What's 17 trillion dollar among friends?

Am I free to shoot everyone that disagrees with me? I could definitely get the weapons without any trouble. Where do you all live?

Austin, TX bo_sox, c'mon down. You can meet my friends Smith, Wesson, and Mossberg.

Let's just imagine an international debt forgiveness day. Every country, every bank, every business, every person forgives their debtors. We all start a fresh from say end of this month. Who would be the winners and who would be the losers.

The bankers would cry and cry that they're losing, but in actual fact, they would really lose anything, only unactualized profits. They create the money they allegedly "lend" then charge the alleged borrower interest. As I said, ALL money in existence is debt, and is created by central banks of nothing. Problem is, they never create the money to pay back the interest. As a result, in time, the banks will eventually OWN EVERYTHING. It is this tyranny by bank that was the very core of the American Revolution. As Jefferson prophetically said, "central banking institutions are more dangerous to the liberties of the people than standing armies..." and "if the people ever allow a central bank to control their money supply, they will find themselves slave on the continent that their grandfathers conquered."

The Federal Reserve has been in existence for nearly 100 years, and in that time the US Dollar has lost 98% of it's true buying power -- and the last 2% will be gone soon. The money of the US, and the world, is created out of nothing but they never create the money to repay the interest. In time, the bank will own everything.

Tyranny by bank was at the core of the American Revolution.


Your grasp of history is as faulty as your logic, sir.

Give me your address. I'll make you a stylish tinfoil hat you can proudly wear wherever you go.

Jack,

And you know history? Why don't you present a counter point rather than trying to disparage me with you played out "tinfoil hat" b.s. I've studied history extensively, especially American history. Your indictment of my contention only displays your profound misunderstanding of the realities of our separation from England.

The Colonies were thriving economically with the use of Colonial Script, which was outlawed by Parlament and their true masters, the relatively recently formed Bank of England. This whole "taxation without representation" thing is nothing more than a boiled down version of the cause of the revolution.

Why do YOU think the colonies decided to break away?

If you're going to make a wild assertion, the burden is on you to prove your point.

But lets see. I'm looking at the text of the Declaration of Independence. Not one mention of banks.

Or currency.

So if you're going to make an argument, make one. Back it up with primary sources. Impress me.

And by "studied history extensively", do you mean actually getting a degree at an accredited institution, or is this the kind of studying that Glenn Beck does?

http://www.venturamunitions.com/black-hills-44-colt-230gr-fpl-ammo-50-rounds/

@ bo_sox

Yeah, so what? A link to expensive ammunition?

When should I expect your arrival bo_sox?

''If you're going to make a wild assertion, the burden is on you to prove your point.''

Well there was the report from the Government Accountability Office: http://www.sanders.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/GAO%20Fed%20Investigation.pdf

Highlights here, for example, http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/10/federal-reserve-board-rife-with-conflict-of-interest-gao-report/

''The makeup of the Federal Reserve’s board of directors poses a conflict of interest and there is concern that several financial firms and corporations could have reaped monetary benefits from their executives’ close ties to the Fed, according to a new report released today by the Government Accountability Office.

In one case, the Federal Reserve consulted with General Electric on the creation of a commercial paper funding facility and then provided $16 billion in financing to the company while its chief executive, Jeffrey Immelt, served as a director on the board of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York. Immelt is now President Obama’s “jobs czar.”

JP Morgan Chase could also have benefited from its chief executive Jamie Dimon’s position on the board of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, according to the GAO. The bank received emergency loans from the Federal Reserve at the same time it served as the clearinghouse for the Fed’s emergency lending program.

The Federal Reserve gave JP Morgan Chase an 18-month exemption from risk-based leverage and capital requirements in 2008, the same year that the Fed gave it $29 billion to acquire Bear Stearns, according to the GAO.

Similarly, Lehman Brothers’ chief executive Richard Fuld served on the board of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York at the same time one of its subsidiaries participated in the Fed’s emergency programs...........................
The report also questions the independence of the Fed’s own executives, some of whom have sought waivers for owning stock in companies that are regulated by the agency. The Fed is not required to disclose those waivers. In September 2008, Goldman Sachs received permission from the Fed to become a bank holding company and get access to loans from the Fed while Stephen Friedman, then chairman of the New York Federal Reserve’s board of directors, owned shares in Goldman Sachs and sat on its board of directors. The Fed gave Friedman a waiver from its conflict of interest rules but did not consult with the board nor did it publicly disclose the affiliation.

One bank official told the GAO that the Fed gave the waiver because it would be difficult to find a chairman during a financial crisis and the bank already had one vacancy on its board. There was also concern that then-president Tim Geithner’s possible nomination as treasury secretary would leave a major gap in the bank’s leadership.

But the Federal Reserve was unaware that Friedman continued to purchase additional shares in Goldman Sachs, leading to his resignation in May 2009.''

I find it hard to argue with this verdict:
"As a result of this audit, we now know that the Federal Reserve provided more than $16 trillion in total financial assistance to some of the largest financial institutions and corporations in the United States and throughout the world," said Sanders. "This is a clear case of socialism for the rich and rugged, you're-on-your-own individualism for everyone else."
http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/news/?id=9e2a4ea8-6e73-4be2-a753-62060dcbb3c3

My assertion is not "wild" it is fact.

Speaking of the text of the Declaration of Independence, that is what:

"He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good."

The use of the Colonial script was "most wholesome and necessary for the public good." It gave colonies, like Penn., a windfall as they charged a slight usury, but instead of being paid to a private banking cartel (like we do now) the taxes were paid back into the colonial coffers to be used for public works. By outlawing all colonial script and forcing the colonists to use the B of E's private currency, with its associated usury, King George, "...refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only." When King George outlawed the colonial script and replace it with the British pound, they went from this to 75 % unemployment overnight.

The American Revolution was an economic/legal and cultural revolution, in that order.

Also, if you want to really understand the nature of money in the world today, and its history, watch the "Money Masters" movie and you will understand how we got where we are today.

Two quotes from Jefferson:
''And I sincerely believe, with you, that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies; and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale."

"Bank-paper must be suppressed, and the circulating medium must be restored to the nation to whom it belongs."

There is also a good reference to the Currency Act and its impact on the American Revolution/ First American Civil war here:

http://www.revolutionary-war-and-beyond.com/currency-act.html

My point by directing you to that site is that anyone - maniac or not - has just as much access to weaponry as anyone else. No licenses, no confirmation. Just a credit card and a legal address.

District of Columbia v. Heller, McDonald v. Chicago.

You can't ban guns outright. You can regulate, and should regulate, but if you want to get rid of guns you need to amend the constitution. If you oppose guns that is where you need to focus your effort.

@ bo_sox

Ammunition is useless without a firearm. I'm trying very hard to stay civil because your ignorance and apparent lack of intelligence is so revolting.

I dare you to find a website that will sell and ship a firearm directly to an unverified individual. All reputable online gun dealers only ship to FFLs or require verification of the prospective purchaser.

True dat Draug! The ATF don't fuck around!

You mean GF

Gunfighter I mean...sorry.