"no true heterosexual scotsman" fallacy.

I just think what they're asking to be informed of isn't really relevant. I think people need to understand that a trans woman is a woman. And any attempt to paint them as otherwise is a transphobic thing to do. I mean, I don't ask about someone's entire life story before I sleep with them. That they may have been perceived to be another gender in the past is irrelevant. They're unmistakably a woman now.

"I can think of no heterosexual man who would have sex with a MtF and be sort of easy about it."

I would.

Wait a second, you are saying that reserving the right to decide for myself whether I want to be with a transwoman makes me a transphobic person?

I suppose then that by reserving the right to decide for myself that I'm not interested in men makes me a homophobe?

No sir, you go too far here.

btw mafia you are well within your right to think it isn't relevant... but what you MUST do is understand that to some people, it is.

"Look, what you have to acknowledge is that the hang up is YOUR PROBLEM. NOT THEIRS."

So again, a straight man is only not a bigot if he is fine having sex with a transsexual? How is their lying about their past different from a guy lying about how much money he makes or otherwise misrepresenting himself in order to get with a girl? We'd call that guy a scumbag and call what he's doing wrong, but the transsexual gets a pass because... well... I can't see why.


"Just because you're all in the same world together, doesn't mean it's the correct world to be in. And it sure as hell won't hurt you to try and consider a different point of view."

Well, it sure feels right to me. You could even say I was born this way, not being attracted to people who were born male. I've said I have no problem with people living transsexual lives and that violence against them is wrong. But now I need to be fine with sleeping with one? That's absurd. You're the one who needs to consider different points of view, and not assume anything that clashes with your orthodoxy is bigotry.

"How is their lying about their past different from a guy lying about how much money he makes or otherwise misrepresenting himself in order to get with a girl?"

That could only be said to apply if you ask and they say they're cisgendered.

Careful, Invictus. Though I agree with the heart of your content, if you were not "attracted" to somebody who was born male and later became female, you would not be in danger of succumbing to this scenario.

I think a big part of the problem DOES come from the challenge to one's self image when one realizes that it is POSSIBLE for him to be attracted to somebody who was born male. A lot of men can't handle that - and the way to confront them with that discomfort is definitely NOT to lean over post-coitus and say, "by the way, i was born a dude." THERE, we agree 100%

Yes to the first question, no to the second question.

The analogy is a false one. The most basically transphobic idea that exists is the idea that a transwoman is not really a woman, or a transman is not really a man. If I were to describe transphobia in a sentence that is what I would say. If I were asked to describe homophobia in a sentence I would not say anything even remotely similar to that.

I mean, let's face it. The only thing you're objecting to here is that the person is trans, right? It's not, presumably that you don't find this hypothetical person attractive. If you don't it's simple, don't sleep with them, then the question is irrelevant. But not wanting to sleep with someone who is otherwise attractive and charming, and who you would normally want to sleep with, but then decide you don't because you find out she's a transwoman? How is that not anti-trans prejudice?

Yellowjacket hits on the difference here exactly. If you just don't find the person attractive then you're not bigoted, you're just not attracted to her. If you are attracted to her, but decide you're not interested because she's transgendered, then you are. See the difference?

No. I point again to the marriage example.

I didn't say it wasn't prejudicial, by definition it IS prejudicial.

By that definition I'm also prejudiced against men, blondes, overweight women, women who don't wear glasses, and women with low IQs. The only difference is I can SPOT these types without needing to be told. Will you ask me now to justify all of these prejudices? Would you like to justify all of yours?

Prejudice and transphobia are very different things. I challenge your definition of transphobia, and would instead define transphobia as "an irrational fear of, and/or hostility towards, people who are transgender or who otherwise transgress traditional gender norms." (civilliberty.about.com)

Nobody who has read my posts here could accuse me of transphobia under this definition, and I reject your implication I'm transphobic because I'm not interested in sleeping with somebody who I know to be transgendered.

yeah Mafia, I'm not supporting that somebody who feels this way is bigoted. Being a bigot goes beyond personal preference.

What marriage example?

Let me try and explain the distinction again, because it's an important one to grasp if this debate is to go anywhere, and it's pretty clear you're not grasping it.

Case 1: You meet a woman at a bar. She's flirting with you, but you don't really find her attractive. You're just not feeling it, so you wish her a good evening, say it was nice to meet her, and walk away, and then later on you find out she was actually a transwoman, and you think, "Oh, maybe that's why." - NOT BIGOTED! YAY!

Case 2: You meet a woman at a bar, she's charming, intelligent, funny and sexy. You really really really want to take her home. Then you find out she's a transwoman, and you're suddenly not interested, even though you were rarin' to go a minute ago. Now, obviously you have some sort of hang up here, and if the hang up is entirely predicated on her status as a transgendered person, how does that not qualify as anti-trans prejudice? I mean, to give an analogy, if the big turn off fact was that she was jewish, and you say "well I thought she was really sexy and I wanted to sleep with her, until I found out she was jewish, that's just a big turn off for me." If that's the case, you might want to consider the possibility that you're kinda anti-Semitic.

^^ I think my most recent post likely answer's Invictus' response to this, Mafia (correct me if I'm wrong Invictus).

But, it's a prejudice you were apparently incapable of exercising until you were aware of it. The difference between not liking blondes and not liking transwomen in this case is that YOU DIDN'T KNOW SHE WAS TRANS UNTIL SHE TOLD YOU. If you weren't attracted to her in the first place that's a different thing, that's not what we're talking about. In our hypothetical situation here, you're turned off by something you didn't even notice!

Also @ Yellowjacket - "Transphobia (or less commonly cissexism, transprejudice, and trans-misogyny, referring to transphobia directed toward trans women, or trans-misandry, referring to transphobia directed toward trans men) is a range of negative attitudes and feelings towards transsexualism and transsexual or transgender people, based on the expression of their internal gender identity (see Phobia – terms indicating prejudice or class discrimination)." - From wikipedia.

Yeah, Yellowjacket got it exactly right. And in Case 2 the person would not be anti-Semitic. He'd just wouldn't be attracted to Jews. That's no different than Yellowjacket not liking blondes, as long as the turn-off only applies to physical relationships and not, you know, an inclination to spread blood-libel and complaining about the ZOG.

But, it's a prejudice you were apparently incapable of exercising until you were aware of it. The difference between not liking blondes and not liking married women in this case is that YOU DIDN'T KNOW SHE WAS MARRIED UNTIL SHE TOLD YOU. If you weren't attracted to her in the first place that's a different thing, that's not what we're talking about. In our hypothetical situation here, you're turned off by something you didn't even notice!

See what I mean?

But he was attracted to her! Just a few seconds before he found out she was Jewish so clearly the statement "I'm not attracted to Jews" would be false, because guess what, you just were.

I think the analogy to marriage is a false one also. The issue there isn't that like you're turned off by the idea of marriage or a married woman, or prejudiced against them. In fact I'm willing to bet that if you met a woman at a bar and wanted to sleep with her, and then found out she was married, you wouldn't find her any less physically attractive afterwards, you just would not act on it, because you'd feel that you have a moral obligation not to participate knowingly in marital infidelity.

Yeah, and he could also be attracted to her until she turns her head and has a mole. Or hears her voice and an annoying Southern drawl comes out. That's a personal preference in a partner, and can't be called bigotry if that word is to have any meaning with regards to the real awful things people do to each other.

Well, we disagree Mafialligator. You'll never change my mind and I'll certainly never change yours. Have fun keeping with your orthodoxy and calling any variation on it bigotry.

Mafia I don't fall under that definition either. I have no negative attitudes regarding trans people beyond the desire to not sleep with them. This is not a phobia!

To your other point, it just comes back to the reasons for not wanting to have sex with a trans person. You've already stated you don't understand them. But you seem to not care to respect them, and that is a problem for me.

That's different. Do you really not see the difference? At all? Are you really THAT STUPID? Because I don't think you can be. You cannot be that stupid, it would be physically, fucking impossible for your brain to operate so poorly that you could not comprehend the difference between not finding someone physically attractive in the first place, and being suddenly turned off by some arbitrary characteristic that makes no difference to anything what so ever. Clearly at this point you are just trying to irritate me. Because holy fucking shit if you are that stupid I don't understand how you manage to BREATHE. ARGH.

who, me or invictus? :P

I don't respect those reasons because I think they're rooted in the same prejudicial ideas that explain why trans people, (and other members of the LGBT community) suffer discrimination and often violence (AND I KNOW YOU THINK VIOLENCE IS WRONG IT GET IT YOU DON'T NEED TO TELL ME THAT AGAIN). The reason you object to trans people is because of heteronormativity and a form of cissexism. The problem isn't you don't really like her nose, or you think her eyes look kinda dull. It's because on some level you think an XX is a woman, and an XY is a man, and you're not willing to look past that. And guess what? That's heteronormativity, that's cissexism.

That outburst was directed at Invictus, but I'd like to apologize for the outburst and retract that. It was said in a moment of frustration. I do not really think that Invictus is stupid, I just wanted to make him feel as hair pullingly frustrated and aggravated as I did. It was an unworthy impulse and just a straight up mean thing to do, and I apologize most profusely and sincerely.