Yeah, when I googled the quote, every reference I found was on a site that was clearly antisemitic to some level, and yet many of them stated that this prophecy was continuously and brazenly reported in the mainstream news, or "publicized by some Jewish scholars", and yet...I have not found it on the site of any mainstream news or Jewish scholar.

and they dont even have a consensus where its from, some say the torah, others say the kaballah and people have varying reports of what it says, its completely made up

@Darwyn

I honestly believe you are the biggest troll on this site (sorry, maple) and people don't even realize it. So, congratulations, I guess.

On the off chance that you aren't a troll, I'd like to say this:

Why does it matter so much to you about the exact figure? Even if we used the most denier-friendly numbers we could find and we got a death toll of 1 million, would that no longer be tragic? Even if *no one* died, would it still not be worth remembering those that suffered (and survived) the camps?

You can claim you're on a crusade for truth all you want, but your tactless manner and your clearly anti-semitic sources leave me to suspect that you're trolling or seriously brain-damaged.

hold on, I misread the plaques, the reason for the discrepency is infact soviet propeganda, which was not included in the western death tolls in the first place.

"Communist Polish and Soviet authorities maintained a figure "between 2.5 and 4 million",[53] and the Auschwitz State Museum itself displayed a figure of 4 million killed, but "[f]ew (if any) historians ever believed the Museum's four million figure".[54] Raul Hilberg's 1961 work The Destruction of the European Jews estimated the number killed at 1,000,000, and Gerald Reitlinger's 1968 book The Final Solution described the Soviet figures as "ridiculous", and estimated the number killed at "800,000 to 900,000".[55] A larger study started later by Franciszek Piper used timetables of train arrivals combined with deportation records to calculate 960,000 Jewish deaths and 140,000-150,000 ethnic Polish victims, along with 23,000 Roma and Sinti,[56] a figure that has met with significant agreement from other scholars.[57]

After the collapse of the Communist government in 1989, the plaque at Auschwitz State Museum was removed and the official death toll given as 1.1 million. Holocaust deniers have attempted to use this change as propaganda, in the words of the Nizkor Project:

Deniers often use the 'Four Million Variant' as a stepping stone to leap from an apparent contradiction to the idea that the Holocaust was a hoax, again perpetrated by a conspiracy. They hope to discredit historians by making them seem inconsistent. If they can't keep their numbers straight, their reasoning goes, how can we say that their evidence for the Holocaust is credible? One must wonder which historians they speak of, as most have been remarkably consistent in their estimates of a million or so dead... Few (if any) historians ever believed the Museum's four million figure, having arrived at their own estimates independently. The museum's inflated figures were never part of the estimated five to six million Jews killed in the Holocaust, so there is no need to revise this figure.[54]"

I think that it is difficult to get an accurate death count because of the horrendous and varied nature of the killing. 5-6 million Jews (including c. 1 million children) are the constraints placed on it by reasonable historians. I think that these parameters have been arrived at by comparing pre- and post-war census records as well as the records kept by the Nazis themselves. Given the robustness of the evidence, I think thart one must question the motivation of those who wish to dispute it.

"I honestly believe you are the biggest troll on this site (sorry, maple) and people don't even realize it. So, congratulations, I guess."

Well, thank you for the back handed compliment! I'm sure maple is upset.

"Why does it matter so much to you about the exact figure?"

Because that's the figure that's been used time and time again to justify anything...

JUNE 11, 1900 - NEW YORK TIMES - page 7 - Rabbi Wise's Address
"There are 6,000,000 living, bleeding, suffering arguments in favor of Zionism."
http://oi51.tinypic.com/2ev5jer.jpg

1902-
The tenth edition of Encyclopedia Britannica (under its entry on 'anti-semitism') references "six million Jews" of Rumania and Russia being "systematically degraded"
http://oi53.tinypic.com/2h3cv90.jpg

1905-
A Jewish preacher declares that if the (Jewish-led) Communist uprising in Russia succeeds in overthrowing the Czarist government, Zionism would no longer be needed
http://oi55.tinypic.com/fw7sj8.jpg

1910-
In the American Jewish Committee's annual report it is claimed that since 1890 Russia has had a policy to 'expel or exterminate' six million of its Jews.
http://oi55.tinypic.com/24oamfb.jpg

1906-A Jewish publicist cries wolf to (ironically enough) GERMANY that there was an impending Holocaust of "six million Jews" in Russia during the aftermath of the first Communist uprising there.
http://oi51.tinypic.com/wb2fm0.jpg

1911-
Max Nordau, co-founder of the World Zionist Organization together with Theodore Herzl, warns of the "annihilation of six million people" at the Zionist congress in Basle, Switzerland.
http://oi54.tinypic.com/mblfkz.jpg

1919-
Shortly after WW1 Jews claim a Holocaust of "six million Jews".
http://oi55.tinypic.com/2v31oua.jpg

And more...

1919-
Six million Jews in Breadline.
http://oi56.tinypic.com/wknyph.jpg

1921-
Russia's six million jews are facing extermination
http://oi52.tinypic.com/2pqmkwi.jpg

1931-
six million jews face starvation
http://oi56.tinypic.com/2hmq4ja.jpg

That's a pattern, fellas.

And for the record, I'm not denying the Holocaust took place. Many people died that is for certain. I take exception to those that use the Holocaust as a way to justify other things.

The OP said that today was "Holocaust Remembrance Day in Israel" and went on to say how SIX million Jews were murdered by Nazis.

I find it a bit nauseating that one can have a "Remembrance Day" for those that died and exclude everyone who isn't Jewish.

abgemacht - I used to think you were an ok guy...I even liked your cooking show on youtube. But today, you've proven to be a mindless weasel who cares more for "tact" than for truth. If tact must presuppose truth, you will have no truth. Nevermind the fact that I simply ASKING QUESTIONS! I didn't know asking questions was consider both tactless and anti-semitic...who knew?!

If you morons cannot answer simple questions without getting your panties in a wad, then I'm not sure what to tell you.

Truth will always survive close examination. Your hissy fits only add to the mystery.

from the OP..."For those of you who want to learn more about the Jewish Holocaust: http://www.yadvashem.org/ "

no, you mean The Jewish Holocaust™...you forgot the damned trademark!

I'm guessing Darwyn got his denial links from this website -

http://waronyou.com/forums/index.php?action=printpage;topic=20810.0

So all of Darwyn's "information" has come from either white supremacist or self-proclaimed conspiracy theory news sources that use the term 'Holohoax' and are rife with anti-Semitic language. This source Darwin cites say only 150,000 Jews were killed in concentration camps, most of which were from typhoid.

It's beyond disgusting to be propagating this vile anti-Semitic filth on a day of remembrance thread, especially to people whose families have personally been victimized by the genocide.

Right, nevermind the actual news articles and don't address any of the points.

Just point your finger and yell "Denier" as loud as possible. Like I said...

Or maybe it was from here - http://sixmillionmyth.blogspot.com/p/six-million-myth.html
Either way, this is regurgitated racist crap from Holocaust denier cranks.

Putin, I forgot...the Holocaust is untouchable.

I did not provide that link...I provided that news article, so you can tell me how racist those are if you want, but your guessing where I got the info from is moot.

@Darwyn

I agree that we should remember everyone that died during the holocaust; I never took issue with that. In fact, I had no problem with your initial post at all. I thought it was perfectly fine.

However, if you look, your other posts are not questions. You *claimed* that there was such a prophecy; you did not ask. You then went on to cite sources from clearly anti-semitic sites.

Nowhere have I said tact presupposes truth (thanks for sticking words in my mouth). I'm saying that your lack of tack leads me to believe you're trolling rather than actually interested in learning anything. Nor, have I called you anti-semitic (again, thanks for sticking words in my mouth). I said your "sources" were anti-semitic.

And, if you'll note, Santa posted a very compelling (imho) answer to your question. Do you still have questions?

Your MO seems to be to take the opposing view of experts on a given subject (which is fine), but then you find the most suspect and biased "sources" to back up your claim, while ignoring all contradictory evidence. I've found that arguments with you are more along the lines of you holding your hands to your ears and repeatedly shouting your questions over and over.

Oh, and I'm glad to hear you like my cooking show. : ) We should have more episodes out after the semester ends.

I don't know, maybe these are fake, Putin?

http://oi52.tinypic.com/2pqmkwi.jpg
http://oi56.tinypic.com/2hmq4ja.jpg

"but then you find the most suspect and biased "sources" to back up your claim"

This isn't about sources, it's about common sense and logic.

I posted actual news articles that reflect many previous claims of using the six million figure. That's a pattern.

And it's that pattern that leads me to the questions I've asked...to which Santa, et.al. became a raving lunatic in trying to discredit.

How many total died in the Holocaust...11 million? But the day to remember it only includes the six million Jews according to Baskenili. That's awful and he needed to be called out on it.

"Oh, and I'm glad to hear you like my cooking show. : ) We should have more episodes out after the semester ends. "

Good, maybe I'll watch them. Yer actually not that bad, I was just a little miffed.

Without wishing to put words into his mouth I would like to ask if Darwyn might agree with these views expressed by Christopher Hitchens?

''Judaism is not just one more religion, but in its way the root of religious evil. Without the stern, joyless rabbis and their 613 dour prohibitions, we might have avoided the whole nightmare of the Old Testament, and the brutal, crude wrenching of that into prophecy-derived Christianity, and the later plagiarism and mutation of Judaism and Christianity into the various rival forms of Islam.''

That seems like it's copied from Nietzsche. Nobody ever accused Hitchens of being original. I love how Hitchens likes to pretend he isn't an Anti-Semite. He once called the Holocaust "Stalinist propaganda". He also makes a point of palling around with famous Holocaust deniers. I think he and Darwyn are made for each other, minus Hitch's neo-con leanings.

"Judaism is not just one more religion, but in its way the root of religious evil..."

I stopped right there fulhamish if that tells you anything. But to be clear, Judaism is NOT the root of religious evil.

@Darwyn

Are you referring to the articles you posted *after* my post to you? Because, the only sources I see from you before then are from an anti-semitic website and a Jewish website. Did I miss something? How can you use something you posted after my argument as a defense of your actions?

Also, did you read Santa's post directly under mine? Does that not satisfy you?

And, again, I agree we should remember everyone who died in the holocaust. But, I wouldn't blame a gay for remember the gays who were killed more, just as I wouldn't remember a jew for remembering the jews who were killed more. It's easier to relate to someone who has similar qualities as you. I don't think the OP was trying to diminish the suffering that non-jews felt because of the holocaust.

"I love how Hitchens likes to pretend he isn't an Anti-Semite. He once called the Holocaust "Stalinist propaganda"'

What does Holocaust denial have to do with being anti-semitic?

@Putin, I was tempted to ask the question in the light of Darwyn's chosen nom de plume.

(e.g., Weikart, R (2004). From Darwin to Hitler: Evolutionary Ethics, Eugenics, and Racism in Germany. Palgrave Macmillan. ISBN 978-1403972019.).

"I don't think the OP was trying to diminish the suffering that non-jews felt because of the holocaust. "

Perhaps he wasn't...perhaps it was the way it was worded...if it's Holocaust Remembrance Day, then remember the Holocaust and everyone who died, not just one particular group. That seems a bit arrogant to entirely exclude everyone else (which is how the OP worded it).

"e.g., Weikart, R (2004)"

Somehow it doesn't surprise me that you're invoking the work of this theocrat who wrote a book that was dogmatic, sloppily researched. and universally condemned by anyone with any knowledge of evolutionary biology, anthropology, or history.

I have read through the whole discussion. Some posts I find hard to even reply to.

@Tiderion - Israel is a Jewish state, and it has nothing to do about religion. A Jew can be totally secular and still be Jewish.

@Darwyn regarding my arrogance of entirely excluding everyone else - please read what I said on page 1. If you wish to address me directly with questions, feel free to do it here. Thank you.

Suggest you try this debate between Weikart and Avalos:

http://mickelson.libsyn.com/index.php?post_id=341046

An excellent example of American radio, every bit as good as anything on the BBC, if not better. In my view Weikart comes out on top, but I grant that you may think differently.

Darwyn, jealous you not Jewish?

Bask - I truly meant no offense. I was just asking some questions and they were met with displaced ire. My apologies.

Scagga - No, I am not.

I'm done with this thread. Thank you.

None of those links have enough masthead to show what they actually are, and most of them decidedly have any form of masthead removed. Unfortunately, the only one I could find free online was the American Jewish Committee report of 1910, which is freely accessible via their archives, and what is presented here is not in any way similar to that.