Forum
A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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rickparker43 (109 D)
21 Mar 11 UTC
Newbies are us
new to the game and looking for a quickmatch starts in 30 hope to see you there
3 replies
Open
SpeakerToAliens (147 D(S))
20 Mar 11 UTC
How much radiation is a Sievert? Here's a simple radiation chart (from XKCD)
Most of you know XKCD, so you know this is well worth reading: http://blog.xkcd.com/2011/03/19/radiation-chart/
The full size chart is here: http://xkcd.com/radiation/
Be sure to read the disclaimer at the bottom of the chart.
7 replies
Open
Graeme01 (100 D)
16 Mar 11 UTC
Since diplomacy players are naturally smart...
Can anyone explain to me in practical terms why anything raised to the power of zero is equal to one? I understand that it's very convenient for algebraic reasons, and I kind of understand the logic and reasoning behind it, but I still can't get rid of the idea that, since 2^5 is defined as 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2, that 2^0 should have no definition because there are no numbers actually involved in it. I would have thought that it would fall into the category of zero denominators as non-real...
99 replies
Open
Crazyter (1335 D(G))
20 Mar 11 UTC
Champ Tourney ruined by lack of Internet Access-Request Rewind
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=48367&msgCountryID=0

Can a Mod please check into the game? Austria's internet went down and he NMR'd, throwing the game to France. Any way we can have some sort of rewind or do-over? If this was an ordinary game, then oh well, shit happens. But this is supposed to be the Championship Tournament. Thanks for any assistance you can provide.
8 replies
Open
diplodude (109 D)
21 Mar 11 UTC
wta gunboat-115
Unexpected orders behavior
2 replies
Open
Vaftrudner (2533 D)
21 Mar 11 UTC
New Brazil needed in world game
Hello, we could use a new Brazil gameID=49579

The country is in pretty good shape, although mismanaged for a few years. It has plenty of options now though.
1 reply
Open
hellalt (70 D)
21 Mar 11 UTC
Knut is dead :-(
R.I.P. dear Knut...
1 reply
Open
Shusaku (230 D)
20 Mar 11 UTC
PLEASE end this!!!
gameID=53969 Stalemates are created everywhere, no ones gonna win but France simply won't draw... it's 3AM here and I'm god damn tired... Is there a way to end this???
62 replies
Open
GB Packers (148 D)
20 Mar 11 UTC
Really
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=53957
The Czech, sckum555, mickmuffin
all three of these dudes leave within a minute of each other a little weird if you ask me
15 replies
Open
The Czech (39715 D(S))
20 Mar 11 UTC
Live Games Posts Go Here
gameID=53955
gunboat in 30 min
47 replies
Open
Mujus (1495 D(B))
20 Mar 11 UTC
Winter 2011: Premier League - Game 2
Is Winter 2011: Premier League - Game 2 open to the riff-raff like me, or must one be connected in some way?
7 replies
Open
Mercurial (113 D)
20 Mar 11 UTC
someone being a bit of a turd.
Right, so i know i was elimitated from said game, but this live game has been at a stalemate for an hour, and france wont recognize a draw. is there anyway to force a draw in said situation? gameID=53969
6 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
18 Mar 11 UTC
Community College Students: "A Parasite!" Reactions?
http://www.kfiam640.com/mediaplayer/?station=KFI-AM&action=ondemand&item=20955349&feed_name=JohnandKen.xml

As a community college student...well, these folks are Right-of-the-Right Wing, and they CERTAINLY have some points which infuriate me, but I'll admit, they DO have one point I agree with...and it goes for ALL students...
38 replies
Open
Sargmacher (0 DX)
08 Mar 11 UTC
Just a Minute
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00yyd36/Just_a_Minute_Series_59_Episode_4/

If anyone wants to sample a bit of British radio comedy, this programme is of the finest there is. I really love this show, please take a listen - I hope you enjoy it too! :)
34 replies
Open
pyrimis (134 D)
19 Mar 11 UTC
Why do people always leave when they are Germany?
Play the game, you are wasting all of our time with cancels
1 reply
Open
Sargmacher (0 DX)
19 Mar 11 UTC
Gunboat Means Never Having to Say You're Sorry-5
gameID=53872

Classic WTA Gunboat, 25 hour phase, 225 D buy-in, passworded.
Whose game? :)
45 replies
Open
MKECharlie (2074 D(G))
19 Mar 11 UTC
Spirit of the game, or cheating?
In the spirit of ftf games, where spying is encouraged, and in postal games, where faking a letter from one person and sending a copy to another is fair play, what do you think of using technology to gather information?
18 replies
Open
Parallelopiped (691 D)
18 Mar 11 UTC
Is this a legitimate tactic?
I was in a high stakes, 3 days/turn game playing France and I kinda figured from some comments made that England was probably at the same college as me so I started staking out the computer labs to see if I could find out who it was.
75 replies
Open
spyman (424 D(G))
22 Feb 11 UTC
Name the famous dead person
Clues: 1. Birth and Death 2. Country of origin 3. Category (arts and entertainment, military, science, religion, political)
Avoid looking it up. If unsure guess.
484 replies
Open
orathaic (1009 D(B))
16 Mar 11 UTC
UN appeal - no-fly over Libya!
the arab league has supported the call: http://www.avaaz.org/en/libya_no_fly_zone_3/

forget Japan, they'll be fine!
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fiedler (1293 D)
18 Mar 11 UTC
No, just in time for politicians all around the world to look moral, whilst not actually helping the 'rebels', who are dooooooomed! :)
Thucydides (864 D(B))
18 Mar 11 UTC
@warsprite:

i'd say not. ceasefire has been declared. looks like it's going to work.

pro-no-fly-zone side = vindicated.

just saying. the UN is effective... I don't care what you say.
warsprite (152 D)
18 Mar 11 UTC
@Thucydides: A ceasefire while still attacking the rebels. Yea. It's going to take more than a no fly zone. Most likely it will take at least a few strikes on ground forces before it's taken seriously.
rollerfiend (0 DX)
18 Mar 11 UTC
the UN is effective only when western forces want it to be.
warsprite (152 D)
18 Mar 11 UTC
What's wrong with Russia? They still have a fair sized military.
they dont want to get involved in a civil war in a nation that is no threat and has done no harm to them?
Katsarephat (100 D)
18 Mar 11 UTC
@Thucydides: This is the first time I've seen the UN be effective and actually do something.
rollerfiend (0 DX)
18 Mar 11 UTC
where the ^&*% was UN when Sudan systematically slaughtered its own citizens in Darfur? Where was the UN when USA invaded Iraq and slaughtered civilian life there? It is all politics, right and wrong is determined by politics.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
18 Mar 11 UTC
i recommend "Responsibility to Protect" to the one who said this:

"a nation that is no threat and has done no harm to them?"

it's a moral imperative. geopolitics play no part in the motive, or shouldn't anyway.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
18 Mar 11 UTC
@katsarephat

tell that to the hundreds of fallen UN peacekeepers of Eastern Congo and elsewhere
Thucy, hate to agree with certain people but why does the world have the responsibility to protect libyans and not bahrainis, palestinians, Ivory Coast(ans?) etc.

That being said, if this leads to cease fire and peace, it was, of course the right move

And ill let mark twain make the rest of my point for me about why a nation wouldn't join in BECAUSE of moral considerations
__________________________________________________

The War Prayer
by Mark Twain

It was a time of great and exalting excitement. The country was up in arms, the war was on, in every breast burned the holy fire of patriotism; the drums were beating, the bands playing, the toy pistols popping, the bunched firecrackers hissing and spluttering; on every hand and far down the receding and fading spread of roofs and balconies a fluttering wilderness of flags flashed in the sun; daily the young volunteers marched down the wide avenue gay and fine in their new uniforms, the proud fathers and mothers and sisters and sweethearts cheering them with voices choked with happy emotion as they swung by; nightly the packed mass meetings listened, panting, to patriot oratory which stirred the deepest deeps of their hearts, and which they interrupted at briefest intervals with cyclones of applause, the tears running down their cheeks the while; in the churches the pastors preached devotion to flag and country, and invoked the God of Battles beseeching His aid in our good cause in outpourings of fervid eloquence which moved every listener. It was indeed a glad and gracious time, and the half dozen rash spirits that ventured to disapprove of the war and cast a doubt upon its righteousness straightway got such a stern and angry warning that for their personal safety's sake they quickly shrank out of sight and offended no more in that way.

Sunday morning came -- next day the battalions would leave for the front; the church was filled; the volunteers were there, their young faces alight with martial dreams -- visions of the stern advance, the gathering momentum, the rushing charge, the flashing sabers, the flight of the foe, the tumult, the enveloping smoke, the fierce pursuit, the surrender! Then home from the war, bronzed heroes, welcomed, adored, submerged in golden seas of glory! With the volunteers sat their dear ones, proud, happy, and envied by the neighbors and friends who had no sons and brothers to send forth to the field of honor, there to win for the flag, or, failing, die the noblest of noble deaths. The service proceeded; a war chapter from the Old Testament was read; the first prayer was said; it was followed by an organ burst that shook the building, and with one impulse the house rose, with glowing eyes and beating hearts, and poured out that tremendous invocation

*God the all-terrible! Thou who ordainest! Thunder thy clarion and lightning thy sword!*

Then came the "long" prayer. None could remember the like of it for passionate pleading and moving and beautiful language. The burden of its supplication was, that an ever-merciful and benignant Father of us all would watch over our noble young soldiers, and aid, comfort, and encourage them in their patriotic work; bless them, shield them in the day of battle and the hour of peril, bear them in His mighty hand, make them strong and confident, invincible in the bloody onset; help them to crush the foe, grant to them and to their flag and country imperishable honor and glory --

An aged stranger entered and moved with slow and noiseless step up the main aisle, his eyes fixed upon the minister, his long body clothed in a robe that reached to his feet, his head bare, his white hair descending in a frothy cataract to his shoulders, his seamy face unnaturally pale, pale even to ghastliness. With all eyes following him and wondering, he made his silent way; without pausing, he ascended to the preacher's side and stood there waiting. With shut lids the preacher, unconscious of his presence, continued with his moving prayer, and at last finished it with the words, uttered in fervent appeal, "Bless our arms, grant us the victory, O Lord our God, Father and Protector of our land and flag!"

The stranger touched his arm, motioned him to step aside -- which the startled minister did -- and took his place. During some moments he surveyed the spellbound audience with solemn eyes, in which burned an uncanny light; then in a deep voice he said:

"I come from the Throne -- bearing a message from Almighty God!" The words smote the house with a shock; if the stranger perceived it he gave no attention. "He has heard the prayer of His servant your shepherd, and will grant it if such shall be your desire after I, His messenger, shall have explained to you its import -- that is to say, its full import. For it is like unto many of the prayers of men, in that it asks for more than he who utters it is aware of -- except he pause and think.

"God's servant and yours has prayed his prayer. Has he paused and taken thought? Is it one prayer? No, it is two -- one uttered, the other not. Both have reached the ear of Him Who heareth all supplications, the spoken and the unspoken. Ponder this -- keep it in mind. If you would beseech a blessing upon yourself, beware! lest without intent you invoke a curse upon a neighbor at the same time. If you pray for the blessing of rain upon your crop which needs it, by that act you are possibly praying for a curse upon some neighbor's crop which may not need rain and can be injured by it.

"You have heard your servant's prayer -- the uttered part of it. I am commissioned of God to put into words the other part of it -- that part which the pastor -- and also you in your hearts -- fervently prayed silently. And ignorantly and unthinkingly? God grant that it was so! You heard these words: 'Grant us the victory, O Lord our God!' That is sufficient. the *whole* of the uttered prayer is compact into those pregnant words. Elaborations were not necessary. When you have prayed for victory you have prayed for many unmentioned results which follow victory--*must* follow it, cannot help but follow it. Upon the listening spirit of God fell also the unspoken part of the prayer. He commandeth me to put it into words. Listen!

"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle -- be Thou near them! With them -- in spirit -- we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it -- for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.

(*After a pause.*) "Ye have prayed it; if ye still desire it, speak! The messenger of the Most High waits!"

It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.
short point, by joining you are not only protecting a portion of the country you are also killing the other portion
Thucydides (864 D(B))
18 Mar 11 UTC
"Thucy, hate to agree with certain people but why does the world have the responsibility to protect libyans and not bahrainis, palestinians, Ivory Coast(ans?) etc."

we have that responsibility too, but it has been shirked. but i'm a realist. i don't think there is a chance in hell the hypocritical leaders of the world will intervene in black africa or in palestine. but if there is a chance of intervention, i will support it, too.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
18 Mar 11 UTC
it's Ivorians btw
Thucydides (864 D(B))
18 Mar 11 UTC
about the twain bit. that's a great passage.

however i don't think it applies to humanitarian interventions. no one is talking about driving the gaddafi forces to extinction. we're talking about protecting civilians and preventing the ragtag rebels from being bombed to hell.

so what if we bomb a few airfields and kill some people in the process? better that than many more dead.

so again the quote is wonderful but i don't think it applies.
Tolstoy (1962 D)
18 Mar 11 UTC
Thucy, all interventions throughout history have been justified on humanitarian grounds. Afghanistan ("save women from the Taliban!"). Iraq ("save the people of Iraq from a brutal dictator!"). Iraq ("Save the Kuwaitis from the brutal Iraqis!"), El Salvador ("Save Central America from the Godless Atheist Communists!")... Go back two hundred years ago and I'm pretty sure all those wars for colonial conquests in Africa were 'justified' by pointing to the need to 'civilize the savages' at bayonet point. Always be wary of those who wish to purchase good deeds with other peoples' blood, sweat, and tears.
warsprite (152 D)
18 Mar 11 UTC
Tolstoy "the need to 'civilize the savages'" Do you mean "The White Man's Burden"?
Tolstoy (1962 D)
18 Mar 11 UTC
Exactly. The phrase escaped me - thanks.
orathaic (1009 D(B))
19 Mar 11 UTC
"where the ^&*% was UN when ...." - the UN is limited by the authority of it's member states.

The Permanent 5 security council members all have vetos, so if they can't agree the UN is powerless. If even one of them disagrees then the UN is powerless.

So where was the UN? well the answer is obvious, either they didn't care (didn't see it happened because it wasn't big news) or they didn't agree on how to proceed.

If your argument is that the UN is shit, then yes, i agree, the system doesn't work very well. If your arguement is that we failure in the past means "we shouldn't try in the future" then i recommend you go crawl under a rock and hide, because a lot of things have failed in the past, a farming (potatoe crop) failure once wiped out 1/4 of my countries population, if you think that means we shouldn't grow potatoes then you're probably going to starve...

The fact that the system needs an overhaul isn't as important right now that it means we shouldn't try to use it to some positive effect today.

How and Ever the P5 (US, Russia, UK, China and France) have the power to veto any change in the structure of the UN. If you really think the UN is shite, please petition those governments to change something.

you just need to convince al 5 at the same time!

imho, you can either shut up or do something about it.

sitting around talking about it.

today, we have seen some good: "the UN Security Council resolution, adopted on Thursday, which called for an immediate ceasefire and banned all flights over Libya." (src/ref: news.bbc.co.uk)

this was the aim of the petition i signed, I don't know if i personally had any effect, but i'm glad that at least i tried!
orathaic (1009 D(B))
19 Mar 11 UTC
i'm not saying we 'need' to save the people of libya from themselves.

i'm saying any government which uses aircraft against unarmed* demonstrators is not fit to govern.

*for all i know this is what happened in libya. My point stands, whether the accuracy of my information is correct or not...
Maniac (189 D(B))
19 Mar 11 UTC
Just so i understand the rules of foreign countries getting involved in other's affairs could someone answer me a few questions?

1/. If I want to throw of the shackles of my government should I arm myself with
(a) a good argument
(b) a knife
(c) a gun
(d) a tank

2/. Assuming I had a good argument but no one listened, I opted for (b) a knife (a gun or a tank seemed extreme.) I take my knife and go to the town square, should the police who's job it is to control dissidents now...
(a) allow me to walk around encouraging others to take up arms
(b) arrest me and throw me in prison
(c) ignore me

3/. Predictably the fasist police arrested me and threw me in prison. I break out steal an anti-aircraft gun and with the help of a few friends try and take over the town centre. The corrupt government (who only exist to claim expenses) now send in the heavy mob, they send in a team with guns, try and cut off my supplies...ekkkk what should I do?
(a) fight to the last man, i may be dead but i'll be free
(b) Ask the UN protect me from the government
(c) surrender and go back to question 1 and arm myself with a good argument.

4/. As I dfon't want to die and I'm no quitter, I petition the UN to protect me. It's late on a friday and most the council have gone away on holiday, the only member left A French guy I once met on holiday passes a resolution to protect me (I suspect he just wants to either piss people off or justify the huge expense of his army) but never one to look a gift horse in the month, i am now protected. Result! But now what, bombs fall from the sky, several of my friends and family are killed, brother now turns on brother and the streets run with blood. Foreign toops enter on the ground, not to occupy (that would be against the UN rules) but to assist, train the natives etc. The government fall, and a new guy takes his place, several people don't like the new guy and a counter insurency errupts. People are now killing people because they killed their people, etc, etc, the foreign forces flee (spending cuts at home? fear of terrorist attack? new government* (delete as applicable).

5/. The world news has moved on and my country has not improved should I
(a) stop writing this drivel, eveyone stopped reading ages ago
(b) just accept that man's instict is to kill others and find ways to justify it
(c) join a peaceful march, go on strike, publish paphlets
(d) move to another country
orathaic (1009 D(B))
19 Mar 11 UTC
I believe your missed an option for question 2.

d) use the airforce to bomb the civil protest.
Maniac (189 D(B))
19 Mar 11 UTC
this just in....No-fly zone doesn't apply to rebel aircraft apparently.

"Opposition radio Free Voice of Libya, broadcasting from Al-Bayda, relays a message from the opposition National Council, claiming jets belonging to the revolution were bombarding Gaddafi's forces."

"Libyan TV claims rebels "admit" downing their own aircraft over Benghazi by mistake"

If rebels are in breach of no-fly join have the UN now go to bomb their positions?
Maniac (189 D(B))
19 Mar 11 UTC
'join = zone
orathaic (1009 D(B))
19 Mar 11 UTC
@Maniac: And the 'petition to UN' is largely a responce to the Government forces using aircraft against (for all i know) peaceful protesters.

Lastly, from what i can tell, and correct me if i'm wrong, but this is not some bunch of kids with an opinion stealing some anti-aircraft guns, this is parts of the military fighting a civil war against other parts.

If you as a member of the your nation's military swear an oath to protect he country and it's people, and are then ordered to bomb/shot/tank those same people, I would certainly question those orders.

Actual lastly, the UN did not authorize occupying Libya, merely shooting down it's aircraft and air strikes against their military vehicles. These are legit military targets...
orathaic (1009 D(B))
19 Mar 11 UTC
And yes, i will grant you that choosing which planes to exclude from a no-fly zone is definitely picking sides.

But i'm pretty sure that one side has been using aircraft against civilians/rebels while the other side has had far more important military targets to attack...

That is to say there is a reason for this bias.
Tolstoy (1962 D)
19 Mar 11 UTC
America is involved in yet another war:
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/03/2011319175243968135.html
Maniac (189 D(B))
19 Mar 11 UTC
@Orathaic - i was merely attempting to put the other side here. I'm from England and believe it to be the best country in the world in which to live and would if pushed defend it's sovereignty; but not so long ago my armed forces fired upon peaceful protestor carrying white handkercheives killing several people (An event known as bloody sunday). The orders were wrong and the armies actions were wrong (IMHO) but if a foreign power were to intervene and try to 'protect' those demonstrators by organising a no-fly zone or targetting our tanks, then I would have stood up to defend my country from an assault. I fear the Libyans who are unfriendly but not hostile to Gaddafi now have a reason to support him; very soon our news channels will not be full of peaceful protestors trying to shake off an tyrant but of foreign planes hitting weddings by mistake or maybe worse, Gaddafi sponsored the Lockerbie attacks, if he were to target the civilian airlines again, then maybe we will regret our rush to war.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
19 Mar 11 UTC
there is a huge difference between the white man's burden and it's ensuing wars of conquest and this.

the difference in iraq unfortunately was not as vast, but i am not here to debate the iraq war. what i am saying is that peacekeeping actions to protect those who cannot protect themselves is justified, even at the expense of sovereignty.

again, read "Responsibility to Protect" by Gareth Evans
orathaic (1009 D(B))
19 Mar 11 UTC
@maniac, i agree, bloody sunday was a shameful use of power.

i also agree that internal struggles get more done, if they succeed. Using external force only allows people to see the external force as an enemy which helps any nationalist cause.

However, i beleive that the UN has demanded a cease-fire, and only authorized a limited amount of force, they will not be firing on thanks if the ceasefire which Gaddafi has declared is actually upheld... if his forces keep shooting, it probably looks bad for them.

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91 replies
fabiobaq (444 D)
19 Mar 11 UTC
Doubt on support hold for units ordered to move, but which won't
I wish to know if support hold will really be cut or would work if it is directed to a unit ordered to move, but which won't really move (e.g., attacking to cut support from elsewhere).
8 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
14 Mar 11 UTC
The Top 10 Best Novels/Works of the Last Century (One Entry Per Author)
http://www.modernlibrary.com/top-100/100-best-novels/

Didn't care for their list...and the readers' list--Ayn Rand and L. Ron Hubbard accounting for 7 out of the Top 10?! Ugh...
So I turn it over to you, WebDippers--your Top 10 1910-2011?
61 replies
Open
pyrimis (134 D)
19 Mar 11 UTC
Metagaming?
Look at Turkey and Austria - does this look suspicious to anybody else?

gameID=53908
15 replies
Open
SleepingSirens (100 D)
19 Mar 11 UTC
suggestion
How about implementing the western country's map into diplomacy? (i do not recall what it was called) and possibly Machiavelli?
7 replies
Open
warsprite (152 D)
17 Mar 11 UTC
No need to be concerned about global warming. The Republicans are outlawing it.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=house-repubs-vote-that-earth-is-not-11-03-16 Rep Ed. If only it could be solved so easly.
45 replies
Open
terry32smith (0 DX)
19 Mar 11 UTC
We need one! For a live game in 8 minutes!!
LIVE - 5 min phase - Classic - Anon - Diplo game starts at 10:35am PST

http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=53915
0 replies
Open
SantaClausowitz (360 D)
18 Mar 11 UTC
Bad Stab?
Asking for thoughts about a gunboat maneuver i made
9 replies
Open
The Czech (39715 D(S))
19 Mar 11 UTC
non sequitur
Who was who in this game?
3 replies
Open
Ges (292 D)
19 Mar 11 UTC
My bracket dreams are already broken
This forum post contains no insightful comments, philosophical points or deep strategy tips on MAO. I am wasting the community's collective time to say that, with less than two days of the NCAA men's basketball tournament under our belts, my bracket is already a hopeless shambles. For the sixth time in six years I am on track to lose to my in-laws in our little pool. It is a really good thing that I don't have a sports gambling addiction . . .
7 replies
Open
Lixyl (100 D)
17 Mar 11 UTC
Quick Question
If I attack someone, and say the invading army comes from X and successfully takes Y. Army on Y must retreat. Can it retreat to X?

Nobody I asked seemed to know, so I'm turning to you people.
16 replies
Open
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