I've met a few Jews who blame various modern European peoples for the Holocaust etc.

"One, the French Resistance is to a large degree a post-war myth."

Uh... where are you getting that from? Over a million French died in the Second World War. That's three times greater than the number of Americans that died in the war. And there were several intellectuals who died in the resistance - one was one of the most important historians of the 20th century (Marc Bloch), another was a prominent mathematician (quoting the opinions of prominent philosophers - generally all of whom are nutjobs to some degree - doesn't mean a whole lot). The resistance was so big by 1944 that Allied headquarters actually had to tell them to slow down - it was to the point that the Germans were starting to recall divisions from the Eastern Front in order to deal with the Resistance. Eisenhower said the "mythical" (to use your term) French Resistance was worth 10-15 divisions.

A bigger share percentage wise, but how much of the populace actually voted. Statistics can be twisted in all kinds of ways. So what percentage of the population actually voted? What was the make up of that percentage? Urban? Rural? In March '33, aproximately 17 million Germans (44% of the popular vote) put Hitler in power. 17 million of a nearly 70 million population. So only about 22% of the people voted for Hitler and the Nazi party.

In American presidentially elections q

Oops.
In American presidential elections, since only 50% of eligible voters vote, and since its close to 50% voting for each party, that means 25% of voters vote for each president. So no US president reflects their country by Draugnars logic. Excellent news. Let the killing begin.

Also, many people in the early thirties - not just Germans, but even many Americans and Britons - viewed Hitler and the Nazis as the only way to keep Germany from Going Red (which was what all the powerful people of the time were deathly afraid of). Not everyone who voted for and/or supported the Nazis were necessarily in favor of exterminating Jews.

My argument is against blaming an entire populace for the decision of about 1/5th of them. And yes, we have a flawed system in the US. And if a party ever came to power like the Nazis, they could throwout and overturn our current checks and balances and we, the people of the US, would be responsible for we could have gotten the vote. I should point out, though, that nearly 2/3rds (61.7%) of eligible voters voted in the 2008 presidential election. Obama won the popular vote with 64.1% votes. So 39.5% of the eligible voters voted for him. That is a statistically significant difference when compared to the 22% of the populace that voted for Hitler.

Yes, and in 2000, 51% of voters voted, and LESS than 50% voted for George Bush. Which means about 25% of the populace voted for Bush, much closer to Hitler than Obama. I'm not sure what your point is there Draugnar, but I'm not surprised at your vehement stance.

According to Wikipedia, Obama was 53% of the vote, not 64%.

Another site I saw (can't find it now) said 64%. But even so a full third of the eligible voters voted for Obama. Statistically significant when compared to 22% for Hitler and the Nazi party.

Obama got about the same as Bush in 2004.

A lot of those French death were us bombing France, plus starvation, plus the German invasion and since the French are counting themselves perhaps a few natural deaths just as all of Stalin's guests in the gulags became WWII casualties. There was nothing in France equivalent to the Warsaw Uprising. And it has always been my understanding that the Germans had more trouble controlling Prague and Amsterdam than Paris.

But one interesting fact there were I think three times as many Stasi officers in 1989 as there had been Gestapo during the war. They did not have that much trouble keeping Europe under control.

Hey Bush has his own evil and we, the people, as a nation, have to answer for that. Hell, I, as a voter, have to answer for that because I voted for him. But my wife does not individually because she voted for Al Gore. I'm saying the nation was to blame, but the individuals have to be taken as individuals. Don't hold it against a person because he or she is German any more than you would hold it against them for being Egyptian. And if you do, you're a racist asshole. You called me a Nazi asshole once. I still don't know why. I despise the Nazis and I despise racism in *all* forms, including yours Dingle. so yes, I am vehemently opposing your racist, anti-German sentiment.

http://www.dkosopedia.com/wiki/1933

March 5: In parliamentary elections German voters give the Nazis only 43.9% of the vote with a high voter turnout of 89%.

89%!?

I believe I specifically said "I don't blame every single German, I realize there were some that actively worked against the regime". You seem to be getting pretty worked up there Draugnar...

But I also said "The values, beliefs, prejudices, etc of the German people (or any people), which allowed Nazism to be born and to thrive and was supported, don't die when the government surrenders. "

RE: gopher27 Not really. Obama was elected with the second largest margin in recent history, second only to Reagan and Mondale. 7 million more people than George Bush, who did get unprecedented votes in 2004 compared to previous elections.

Voter turnout has increased every year, see: http://www.usconstitution.net/elections.html

That statistic is worng from everything I've read.

Federal election results
Date Votes Percentage Seats in Reichstag Background
May 1924 1,918,300 6.5 32 Hitler in prison
December 1924 907,300 3.0 14 Hitler is released from prison
May 1928 810,100 2.6 12
September 1930 6,409,600 18.3 107 After the financial crisis
July 1932 13,745,800 37.4 230
November 1932 11,737,000 33.1 196
March 1933 17,277,000 43.9 288 After Hitler had become Chancellor

It doesn't transfer perfectly. Now there is one flaw in my analysis that you haven'tpointed out but I will. I compared total population of Germany versus eleigible voters in the US. Total population of Germany wasn't eligible obviously anymore than everyone in the US can vote (under 18? nope. In prison for serious felonies? nope.).

And I didn't say those beliefs died just becuase the government surrendered. Far from it. I'm saying they died out *over the last 70 years*.

@gopher: "it has always been my understanding that the Germans had more trouble controlling Prague and Amsterdam than Paris." - Facts? What's your point, except exposing your francophobia? French were all collabos? I am just glad that the american WWII vets know better than that.
"But one interesting fact there were I think three times as many Stasi officers in 1989 as there had been Gestapo during the war. They did not have that much trouble keeping Europe under control. " - Sure Nazis had a police, but they also had an army , remember?

I meant percentage..... a lot of it doesn't really matter. The Electoral College distorts people's behavior. Turnout is higher in competitive states, so the number of competitive states dictates turnout. Having never voted in a state that mattered, I've always had the temptation to not bother. Obama looked a lot like Carter to me, so I expected a lot of buyers remorse like in the late 70s. It amazed me to talk to highly intelligent people who stated they were voting for Obama on the belief that everything he said in public was a lie. He clearly was asking people to project their own aspirations onto him without actually agreeing with them. Very similar to Deval Patrick in Mass and of course Jimmy the Vague. I kept having the experience of having people explain to me how great Obama was while ascribing to him utterly contradictory attributes. I assumed a great many people were going to feel lied to in the end and such people end up hating politicians more than their enemies do. He clearly picked up a statistically significant number of Republican votes in Texas for example. Those people will hate him with the fire of a thousand burning suns by the time the next election comes around.

Actually you're right, I thought Bush got 52 in 2004 not 51.

Care to tell where your stats came from Draugnar?

And again, I don't recall badmouthing today's Germans. If you can find me saying that, let me know.

And again, just what are you working yourself into a lather about anyway?

I never said they were all collabs. Just fewer true resister than say the Poles, who rose up twice and were butchered both times. Compared to the Pole or the Greeks or the Serbs or the Czechs or the Ukrainians, the French did not resist that much. Red Dawn they were not. My claim was that the popular image of the French Resistance is primarily a post-war romantic embellishment.

Wikipedia page...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party

Look at the table farther down the page.

I thought you were equating today's Germany (the nation) with Germany of WWII and I don't see it as the same because 70 years have passed and attitudes have changed. Although I will grant that it can take significant time for major changes to occur. Hell, it took over 100 years to go from eliminating slavery to actually allowing a person of color to have a vote and equal rights, and some would argue that it still isn't completely equal. So maybe there is still an air of superiority amongst the ruling classes in Germany today...

Yeah, go figure, there may just still be Nazis around then too, huh?

That table farther down the page does not have 'eligible voters' as a column.

I know, that was why I pointed out the flaw in my logic. if 17 million was 89% of the eligible voters, then that other stat was right. But considering germany had a population of 69 million during WWII, that would seem low unless they were excluding classes of people like the Jews, which I'm sure they were as the Nazi party already blamed the Jewish people for Germany's troubles.

And yeah, there are still Nazi's around. In Germany they just hide cause it's against the law, but there are plenty here in the US.

Based on this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_presidential_election,_1932
The first round of voting, there were 37,532,013 votes cast in that election, which was 86.2% of the vote.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_election,_March_1933
In 1933, Hitler got 17,277,180 votes, which was 43.9 % of the vote.

Assuming the same approximate # of eligible voters... nah, someone else do the math.

Really? Nazis in the US you say?

Interesting. So only about 42 or 43 million voters out of 70 million people were eligible. I guess that's about right considering the average family was probably the typical 2 parents and 1.5 to 2.5 kids.

By the way, do still consider me an anti-semitic Nazi asshole?

The US has a population somewhere just over 300 million and less than 210 million are eligible voters... I guess it's pretty close on the percentage.

Jews are fine, its those damn Israelis I can't stand. But, that's a whole other topic in itself.