I agree with you, JECE, it was all about money, that's why they invaded. But the Spanish did give an option of Convert or die. The reconquestadors of 1492 and the Spanish Inquisition was based on religion..convert or die. Even today some Spanish and Portugese recipies originate from this time to catch out Jews and Muslims by being made from pigmeat. But as you say, they was no idea of "Human Rights" but the UN Charter on human rights was signed in the 1940's.

@ Shafto

I realize that touched a nerve there. It was however not a ridiculous point. In terms of numbers killed in there are three secular figures that dwarf everyone else. Hitler, Stalin, and Mao. They literally killed people by the millions. Hitler's motivations against the Jews was secular (he considered them to be of inferior racial stock), Mao and Stalin were both part of a movement that was atheistic. I'm not saying that atheists are bad people. I'm merely putting things in perpective. The statement I was refuting is a talking point that has little basis in fact. The worst atrocities in terms of numbers killed have not been over religion. If you add in lesser tyrants Pol Pot, Kim Jung Il, etc. it gets even worse. Pol Pot killed nearly 2 million people in a country that had a population of less than 10 million. Can you really point to a Religious figure that has killed more than 20% of his own countrymen during peacetime?

@ Shafto

You don't seem to know what the Spanish Inquisition was. It was an ecclesiastical court that had no authority over anyone who wasn't Christian.

The things that you are referring to were from before the Spanish Inquisition. THe king of Spain wanted a completely Christian nation. People did convert and there was susp[icion that the conversion was just to appease the king. It had nothing to do with the Inquisition. Regardless the entire Spanish Inquisition killed 2,000 people over 300 years. That's a tragedy, but it cannot be compared to the atrocities I cited.

@ abgemacht

But we both agree that the law should not be passed. That's my point. Besides, if they're that extremist over there, then there will be plenty of lynching mobs to do the job.

And the lynching is what should be illegal.

"Uganda is a nation that has gone from a 4% to a 96 % Christian population in the past one hundred years."

Numbers don't speak accurately. Drop that number down to 10% and you'll be about right. I have a good friend that's been a missionary to Uganda for some time now. He says most say they're Christian and have no idea what it means.

How is the view of "homosexuality is a sin, and they will be punished by my god unless they repent" not passive aggressive behaviour at it's best? Telling someone they should repent for something as harmless as being attracted to someone is ridiculous.

@`ZaZaMaRaNDaBo

Really most people aren't taking most of the bible seriously anyways, defining what a christian should do besides "follow christ" or "acknowledge his supremacy" is pretty vague and up to much contestion. Regardless, there's plenty of harmfully judging or incorrect material in the bible for mass conversion to be bad.

@Crazy Anglican

Are you counting all the Jewish killings in the old testament, or Muslims, who are based in the same Judeo-Christian lore?

Or on the gripping hand, are you counting all the deaths by pagans/heathenistic religions? They're probably killed more people over time than any other group.

Atheism is merely a view that should follow from rationalism and skepticism, which should also lead to pacifism except in defence.

Completely off topic, but how does atheism lead to pacifism?

Rationalism, not atheism. I'm taking the stance that both atheism and pacifism flow from being rational.

Enlightenment thinking also gave us the Jacobins and the reign of terror. It really just isn't so. You are probably a pacifist, and the seems rational to you. Historical record differs on the point that atheists are pacifists though.

As for the idea of the pagan and hethenistic religions killing more people over time, can you point to any particular numbers or incidents? The atrocities that I cited are well documented. It's hard to compete with nearly two million deaths by execution and starvation within a four year period. All of this directly attributable to the mismanagement and crimes against humanity of a single group. Are you seriously contending that anything of that magnatude occured and if so what is the source?

Shardz I really think that you're trying to defend a talking point that sounds really nice for atheists. THe only problem is that there isn't that much data to support it. If you are really rational as you claim then you must look at the historical record and dismiss this notion as the nonsense that it is.

I don't believe at all that rationalism leads to pacifism. Unless EVERYONE believes in pacifism, pacifism is not rational at all.

The crimes of Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge are pretty well documented. Pol Pot admitted to 800,000 killed. His Lieutenant estimated 1 million dead at their hands. The population of the entire country was only estiated a 8 million people and some of the estimates of the dead go as high a three million.

I'll go a step further. Pacifism is the purview of religion in most cases. There isn't a secular nation in the world that doesn't employ a military. There are few if any religions that do.

"Really most people aren't taking most of the bible seriously anyways, defining what a christian should do besides "follow christ" or "acknowledge his supremacy" is pretty vague and up to much contestion. Regardless, there's plenty of harmfully judging or incorrect material in the bible for mass conversion to be bad"

No, they literally have no idea who Jesus is.

Shafto: You don't know what the reconquista is either. But you're not alone. Centuries of disinformation do their toll.

Crazy Anglican: Try the Taiping Rebellion. That's 20,000,000 to 30,000,000 + That was a religious war only a century and a half ago. Setting up the Congo Free State caused 8,000,000 to 10,000,000 deaths. The Rape of Nanking caused 42,000 to 400,000 deaths in one day. The Rawandan Genocide caused 500,000 to 1,000,000 deaths. Aztec human sacrifice caused 300,000 to 1,500,000 deaths. The Ottoman conquest of Cyprus resulted in ~30,000–50,000 Christian deaths. The Siege of Tripolitsa during the Greek War of Independance caused caused around 35,000 to 40,000 deaths in three days, exterminating the Jewish population and killing tens of thousands of Turks. The Massacre of the Latins in 1182 killed ~60,000–80,000 within a month. The Hama Massacre against the Muslim Brotherhood resulted in 7,000 to 40,000 deaths in one day. The Hamidian massacres against the Armenians resulted in 80,000 to 300,000 deaths. The Armenian Genocide resulted in 1,500,000 to 2,000,000 deaths less than 100 years ago. 260,000 to 262,000 Muslims in Bulgaria were killed in 1878. The Algerian War resulted in 500,000 to 1,500,000 deaths. The Dungan revolt of Muslims in China resulted in 8,000,000 to 12,000,000 deaths including civilians and soldiers. The Yellow Turban Rebellion, related to Daoism, caused 3,000,000 to 7,000,000 deaths. The Thirty Years' War, undoubtedly religious in nature, caused 3,000,000 to 11,500,000 deaths. Need I go on?

Famine and political repression in Cambodia caused 1,700,000 to 3,000,000 deaths.

JECE you are throwing a lot of secular political atrocities in your statistics and blowing some of them way out of proportion. I'll come back to them individually, but the statistics that you're citing are in many cases simply wrong. (The Rape of Nanjing for instance was racial and political as the Japanese were perpetrating this against the Chinese in WWII- hardly a religious war by any stretch of the imagination). Even the Thirty Years War, which undoutedly started as a result of religious differences, became a political struggle in which Cardinal Richlieu organized groups of Catholics to support Protestants against other Catholics (if the central issue remained religious doctrine that would not have been the case).

Again I'm not saying that religious people are better or worse that atheists. I'm stating that the worst atrocities have been committed by secular authorities for non-religious purposes. The problem with throwing a whole lot of statistics with death tolls attached is that you seem to be making that statement that all of these are religious in nature, but in fact many of them are secular and support my original statement rather than refuting it. The Rwandan Genocide for instance was racial between tribes that had been rivals for years. One cannot make the statement, reliably, that merely because lots of people are religious then religion is the cause of most of their conflicts. This is simply faulty causation. What is your evidence to show that religion is the primary cause in these statistics?

You can make lynching illegal, sure. But if the local cops won't enforce it, then you might as well not bother.

Thats a pretty sad world view you have TMW. Its a 'waste of energy' to kill gays (have you ever said it was 'wrong'? And your silence in no ways supports or contributes to anything that goes on around you. And your words in no way supports violence taken up in your name, or by the people who agree with you. And making laws is to stop it is pointless because enforcement is difficult. Sorry, but I don't see 'nuance' in your views. I see quiet acquiescence.

Is that about right?

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I did not speak out;
I was not a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

I am an atheist... and I see that religion has often been exploited for evil... but then, so have political philosophies... including, but not limited to, communism and it's attendant distaste for religion. The enemy is fanaticism. The problem is not that I like chocolate and you like vanilla... the problem is that some are willing to kill over such things.

@Dingle - I love that quote from Martin Niemöller.

@ Crazy Anglican

I'm not saying that atheists /are/, I'm saying that they should be to a degree, if it flows from being rational. Atheism does not always come from that, and people are hippocritical so it doesn't work out that way in a lot of cases.

And I only mean pacifism of a sorts, obviously not in defence.

I'm referring to people like Genghis Khan and all the wars everywhere in history, most of which were fought by people of primitive religions. Not neccesarily for religious reasons, but by religious folks.

Also, from what I know Hitler wasn't completely secular; he certainly saw the church as an institution of control and promoted its use as such.

If anything, religion is not stopping these people from killing for secular reasons.

I think technological advances plays a large part as well, the biggest killers where 20th century killers, and obviously technology has its peak then. I think there are an astounting amount of religious conflicts over time, but many of them are from a more primitive age where killing 6 million people in under a decade wasn't as feasible.

I think over time if you added up /all/ religious influenced killings, it could come out on top (not necessarily will, though), but for sole events I think what Crazy Anglican has mentioned are the worst.

@Shardz, of course most wars were fought by religious folks... most people are religious. ...besides, association does not equal causation. Are you simply saying that both religion and war are ignorant enterprises? ...and therefore associated by their common cause of ignorance? I may be tempted to conceptually agree with you... but I think the evidence is weak either way.

As far as Hitler and his oft-claimed atheism:

"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."

- Adolf Hitler, to General Gerhard Engel, 1941

"By helping to lift the human being above the level of mere animal existence, Faith really contributes to consolidate and safeguard its own existence. Taking humanity as it exists to-day and taking into consideration the fact that the religious beliefs which it generally holds and which have been consolidated through our education, so that they serve as moral standards in practical life, if we should now abolish religious teaching and not replace it by anything of equal value the result would be that the foundations of human existence would be seriously shaken."

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 2 Chapter 1

"Today Christians ... stand at the head of [this country]... I pledge that I never will tie myself to parties who want to destroy Christianity .. We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit ... We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theater, and in the press - in short, we want to burn out the poison of immorality which has entered into our whole life and culture as a result of liberal excess during the past ... (few) years."

- Adolf Hitler, quoted in: The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, 1922-1939, Vol. 1 (London, Oxford University Press, 1942), pg. 871-872

"We demand freedom for all religious confessions in the state, insofar as they do not endanger its existence or conflict with the customs and moral sentiments of the Germanic race. The party as such represents the standpoint of a positive Christianity, without owing itself to a particular confession...."


- Article 20 of the program of the German Workers' Party (later named the National Socialist German Workers' Party, NSDAP)

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. ...Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. ..."

- Adolf Hitler, speech on April 12, 1922

"The fact that the Curia is now making its peace with Fascism shows that the Vatican trusts the new political realities far more than did the former liberal democracy with which it could not come to terms. ...The fact that the Catholic Church has come to an agreement with Fascist Italy ...proves beyond doubt that the Fascist world of ideas is closer to Christianity than those of Jewish liberalism or even atheistic Marxism..."

- Adolf Hitler in an article in the Völkischer Beobachter, February 29, 1929, on the new Lateran Treaty between Mussolini's fascist government and the Vatican

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith ...we need believing people."

- Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant

"We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."

- Adolf Hitler, Speech in Berlin, October 24, 1933