@Ivo - You're so considerate ^_^ I do agree we should have before we shot out so much promotion but I think the goal of most of us is to inform and that should never have an age limitation.

I've never taken any drugs, smoked, or drank.

Unless you count Tylenol/Advil. But even those, I really don't like.

I'm 19 years old, so if you've been drug free 19 years, congrats, you've been drug free longer than me.

@Ivo - I'm 43. Vorn 1966, graduated high school in 1984. I said I drink, just not to excess (only twice in my life, once on beer at 19 and once on vodka and schnapps at 21). My attitude is mellowed because of my meds. When they are off my thyroid acts up and I'm a REAL pill (see a few weeks back). Do a little research on hypothyroidism (low thyroxin levels) and see what kind of mood swings can result. It is believed that many "manic depressives" actually have screwed up thyroids.

I'll have a "stiff drink" (usually a martini of some sort or a scotch, sometime a brandy) and a cigar or pipe to help me relax on occassion, but that is all the drugs I'm going to try. Poppy seeds grow in the ground, but I'm not going to inject myself with heroine any more than I'll drink arsenic (made from hemlock). Just because it grows in the ground does not make it safe to consume and to suggest otherwise is ignorant. Not saying you are ignorant, just that statement.

What you gain from drugs is a different perspective, time changes, boundaries disappear, and you can see the world without the filter your life/experience has created.

You become a slightly different person. Like a puppet managing itself from a 3rd person veiw. And you act different and think different. Part of this is the 'hook' (pshychological dependency) as it can make you feel better, the other part is the deep realisation that there's another point of view Like after climbing a peak, having great sex, or a very stiimulating discission.

People who have not tried drugs should realise they are talking utter bollox. If you think you're so strong try it, then quit it, and then we'll talk. Because I've only ever seen 'converts'. Normal people who can control it and have fun at the same time.

@Draugnar - ok, fair enough - I am not familiar with this and accept what you say to be totally ok - my point was that you're being prejudiced and I only know people that oppose light drug use for recreational purposes who have never tried anything (or claim so).

@rlumley - I am including those as they are drugs if you want to place them in a different category you'd be as silly as the FDA ^_^

@Draugnar - I think the point is that you people (yes I'm generalizing because it's all you people have been doing to drug users this whole post) separate the drugs from legal and illegal and judge based on that when our point is the legal and illegal aspect is a pathetic stain on us as a sentient species. In the state of Arizona it's illegal to carry more than 3 dildo's in a purse out in public *I applaud* you're right, the justice system is so good at right and wrong. The purpose is a type of order, not the supreme power of the concept of right and wrong.

@Sayjo - Information is also dependent on age of the recepient, isn't it? :)

He said he's going to try it and people started voting on it without having any idea about the guy...

"In the state of Arizona it's illegal to carry more than 3 dildo's " - this cannot be true? :)

@ Ivo: Draug makes a great point. I'd like to add this. Plants have evolved so that they are poisonous. It's a defense mechanism that every 10th grade biology class learns.

Also, I don't think I'm strong enough to quit. Who ever said they were? We said we don't want to do them for other reasons, and I mentioned specifically I didn't want to get addicted.

@ Sayjo: "I think the point is that you people (yes I'm generalizing because it's all you people have been doing to drug users this whole post) separate the drugs from legal and illegal and judge based on that"

I've never done any such thing. Alcohol and Tobacco fit in as just as evil in my argument as meth.

@rlumley - "Your argument, as I understand it, is that an acid trip deceiving ones senses means that life could simply be a hallucination and an elaborate hoax."

First off no more Matrix for you, no fucking intellectual thinks that so try to have a conversation without assuming the other person is speaking from silly notions or you won't get anywhere in this aspect.

Secondly, Chrisp jump in add or do your thing, I see this example as this. In a basic communication model there are four aspects, what only you know, what you know and what he is saying, what you are saying and what he knows, and what only he knows. On the other half of all communication is unknown, it is impossible to know. The more you understand that the more you realized how little you know. Relativity is the perfect concept that is applied to everything, so apply it to yourself here because your one sided conversations are silly. We are accepting of nondrug users because we have played both sides of the fence, don't tell us whose field is better. We aren't saying there is one, just that we know them both and think it's silly to pick one over another. (May as well be on drugs with tangents like that lol ^_^)

@rlumley - The notion of evil is the problem, the fact that you put them in the same boat does elevate you in terms of balance.

@ Ivo - Obviously not enforced but not off the books because it'd almost be a waste of time, I just thought of a light hearted but very real example ^_^

My body chemistry and attitudes are fucked up enough from my thyroid. why risk making things even worse. For what it is worth, I have used meditation (and still do) to leave my thoughts and view myself and the world around me from a very different perspective. I use smells (via incense and other means) to return to places and times in the past and relive them as if they were happening now while in a trance, but that is my own mind doing the job without the use of a chemical additive (the smoke of the incense hardly qualifies as a real additive).

@Draugnar, supposed THC helped with your balance? I don't use drugs to meditate in fact I don't see it as possible. It is in no way the point, you're just showing our argument that you don't know it and like is commonly said, you can't until you cross. We haven't said that you should or looked down on you for not doing it but your belief has that perception of ours when we are the ones who have experience more of both sides.

@Sayjo

If Chrisp was not arguing some form of the matrix argument, please tell me what he was arguing, because I don't understand it.

As to your whole communication model, your point is essentially this. There's what I know. There's what Chris knows. And then what do you know?

And I'll tell you what field is better all I want to. I pride myself on being judgmental. What is a judgement? It's a conclusion from a logical argument. And if you want to say that I make many conclusions from logical arguments, I take that as the highest of compliments.

@rlumley - Wow you are full of shit on many levels lol

The model was mentioned as basic and for one on one communication so don't be cute. Didn't get the analogy, simple to me and I'm not going to change it for you, then I don't care.

Judgment is not a conclusion of a logical argument. Writing your own dictionary there you perscriptivistic bastage? If you find logic and judgement in the same definition I'll laugh.

You can just say which field is better, I'm just saying you look like an idiot over there because I know my field has better grass. (Puns feels so good ^_^)
You on the other hand are playing in the same field you have your whole life which is fine because it is functional and safe, I just prefer to play ball somewhere else.

"I don't use drugs to meditate in fact I don't see it as possible."

But you wouldn't know, would you? You haven't tried it. That's the crux of your whole argument.

Furthermore: "We haven't said that you should (use drugs) or looked down on you for not doing it"

Hamilton: "i think everyone should try cannabis once and some sort of hallucinogen once."

Chrisp: " actually recommend that many of you try LSD or magic mushrooms at least once in your life, because it really is an eye-opening experience."

Ivo: "Maybe you should try something for a change - surely what grows from the ground cannot be that much worse than whatever pills you're taking."

Main Entry: judg·ment
Variant(s): or judge·ment \ˈjəj-mənt\
Function: noun
Date: 13th century
1 a : a formal utterance of an authoritative opinion b : an opinion so pronounced

- Miriam Webster

judgement - an opinion formed by judging something
judge (jj)
v. judged, judg·ing, judg·es
v.tr.
1. To form an opinion or estimation after careful consideration

-The Free Online Dictionary

The term judgment (AE)[1] or judgement (BE) generally refers to the considered evaluation of evidence in the formation of making a decision.

- Wikipedia

Should I go on?

@rlumley - :"But you wouldn't know, would you? You haven't tried it. That's the crux of your whole argument."

You either don't know how to read or you are in la la land because it makes no sense at all. I haven't tried what?


Again with you grouping all users in the same category... Idiot I'm sick of that game. We - in the sense I use it is the people who think along my lines. I'm not the epitome of drug users.

Fine, I'll start using I, it in no way alters what I've said. It just shows YOUR fallacy in thinking 'we' meant everyone who uses drugs. Replace it with I and learn relevance.

Yes you should go on, I don't see the word logic and I want to laugh like I mentioned. I want to say you're 19 so you have no idea what you're talking about but I don't like doing that because it's been done to me and I actually have levels of awareness unlike you who seems to think that what you know is a universal fact.

You haven't tried incense to meditate was my point. Look at the context from which I pulled that quote.

And I apologize for using the word "we" to mean more than one person. Obviously that was a gross error in logic.

What I know is a universal fact. It is impossible to know anything that isn't a universal fact.

What you meant to say is that What I think isn't a universal fact. And while it isn't, it is universally correct.

Dictionary.com:

logic: 4. reason or sound judgment, as in utterances or actions: There wasn't much logic in her move.

"Immanuel Kant argued that logic should be conceived as the science of judgment" - Answers.com

The Free Dictionary: logic - reasoned and reasonable judgment;

Shall I go on?

Here. I'll post for you Sayjo:

LOL.

You said you'd laugh if I found logic and judgement in the same definition, no?

@rlumley - You do what everyone does, argue using different context. Grammatical error and gross error in logic are not the same thing. You obviously think in English with that type of arrogance. I don't because I'm better than you lol yay my laugh.

No I meant know not think, knowing doesn't make it a universal fact because the universe doesn't give a shit what you know, or think you know. I'm late to a date but she wont mind, she'll read it later had have a good laugh at your expense. I'm the luckiest man alive ^_^

How can you know something that is not a fact?

You can think you know something that is not a fact. But that is my point. I don't know anything that isn't a universal fact. I know that F=ma. I think that Anberlin is a good band.

@Sayjo - I assume you mean the active ingredient in cannabis. No, I never used THC when meditating. I practice Tai Chi now and have always used breathing and solitude/quiet to center and focus on my meditation. It's a little more difficult since getting married because my wife doesn't get it and is the noisiest person I know. But after more than 20 years, she knows better than to enter my study if the door is closed.

Oh and Chrisp said "everyone" should, so unless I'm not part of everyone, someone (Chrisp) DID say I should try drugs. Simple logic.