- was to quick there, now it reached DK too.

But, the theme is interestingly not on the attacks on Israelis to feel sorry for them, but more explaining why it is their own fault. There also were a part of the story about Israeli knifing another Israeli because he thought he was a Palestinian and groups of right wing Israelis moving through Jerusalem trying to find someone they can get a fight with.
Also explained the Palestinian aggressiveness as fear in a hopeless situation where their President don't seem to get any closer to peace, where there still is coming more settlements and where even the Templemount is look upon with greed from right wing Israeli. And this is from the national tv-station.

Not the news Baskinelli hoped fore, I think.

BOG, I think you should take some time and learn the difference between being a Jew, being Israeli and being a Zionist.

Israeli government apologists are always quick to label critics of their policy as anti-semites.

@Diplomat does that misuse remove weight from the word?

I think it is still very powerful, what do you think?

Yes, still rather powerful, even as -isms go.

I am sorry that this post is going to be long, but it is a complicated conflict and if you want to discuss it, we need to understand its details.

But, before I start, I would like to reflect a bit on the saying that Israel is systematically eliminating Palestinians, as part of some sort of long-term goal. It is definetely an anti-semitic saying. When Christian babies disappeared, it made sense to conclude that Jews are stealing them to make matza bread in Passover. When Palestinians are dying, it makes sense to blame the Jews in a deliberate extermination of Palestinians. The fact is that there were there 1.9 million Palestinians in 1990 and about 4 million Palestinians in 2010 (UN numbers) (the population more than doubled in 20 years). In comparison, there were 16.6 million Jews in the world before holocaust, and now there are only 14.4 million. Jewish population took such a hit that it has not recovered from it almost 80 years after.

Statements that disregard the facts and still blame Jews for something that they did not do/are not doing are clear anti-semitism.

And now, to the conflict.

I don't want to go to the historical roots of the conflict, because then it will lead us to questions such as "who was here first" and "why the Palestinians have P in the name of they country, while they don't even have the P letter in their ABC". It is counter-productive and will not lead us to a solution.

Instead, I would like to review the current situation.

The current situation is that the Arab population can be divided to 3 distinct groups. It is important to understand them.
1. Gaza Arabs. Gaza Arabs live under the Hamas rule. Hamas was democratically elected 10 years ago (first and only election that took place), and it immediately kicked the Phatah (PLO) from Gaza. By kicked, I mean "savagely killed PLO officials in Gaza to take over its ruling mechanisms". Gaza has two borders: a border with Israel and a border with Egypt. At this moment, both borders are closed, with the Egyptian side taking very active steps to flood the smuggling tunnels from Gaza to Egypt. The Arabs in Gaza don't have Israeli citizenship. Population: ~1.7 million.

2. West Bank Arabs. The organization that rules the West Bank is the PLO. Actually, the West Bank is divided to 3 areas - A, B and C (as was outlined in Oslo agreements in the 90's). A is the area under complete Palestinian control (3%). There are not settlements there, and there are 8 big Palestinian cities in there. B is the area under a joint Israeli-Palestinian control (25%) and there are not settlements there. C is an area under Israeli control. All of the Israeli settlements are located in this area.
Arabs in these areas have different status. Arabs in area A and B mostly don't have Israeli citizenship. Most of the arabs in area C have Israeli citizenship. Population: ~2.5 million.

3. Israeli arabs. These arabs live in Israel. They have Israeli citizenship, they vote for the Israeli parliament and in fact they have 13-17 (out of 120) democratically elected representatives in the Israeli parliament (Knesset). These arabs, because they are Israeli citizens, have all the rights that any other citizen would have. Population: ~1.6 million.

And of course there are Israeli Jews. Israeli Jews population is a bit over 6 million (6.3, if I am not mistaken).

So, when someone is saying "Israeli", I understand that as "having Israeli citizenship". It includes Jews, Arabs, Druze and other nationalities who live in Israel. If you want to address the Jews in Israel, you need to specifically state it.

There is a reason I have not addressed all the 3 Arab populations as "Palestinians". While group 1 and 2 definitely define themselves as Palestinians, the 3rd group, the Israeli Arabs, are more divided in what they are thinking. They indeed consider themselves as Palestinians, but most of them also think of themselves as Israelis. They work and study with Israeli Jews, and generally are enjoying the highest life longevity in the Arab world, thanks for the superb Israeli medical system.

Two state solution
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lets talk about the two state solution. Two-state solution idea is to divide the current Israel, West Bank and Gaza to two countries - one for the Jews, another for Arabs. However, now that you understand the complexity of the Arab population, you understand that this is not that simple. Suppose that we somehow manage to bridge geographically between West Bank and Gaza (they are about 60 kilometers apart, if not more), without disrupting Israeli territorial integrity (if you bridge West Bank and Gaza, you divide Israel into two parts). What should the Israeli arabs do?

In fact, in the polls, most of the Israeli arabs do not want to move to West Bank or Gaza. Why would they? They have lived among Jews since 1948, their home is there. They are enjoying all the benefits that Israel offers (including very good medical system), and most of them don't want to move to the future Palestinian state.

And this is ok. I don't think that someone should force Arabs move to the Palestinian state.

This is where things are getting really complicated. Jews will not stay in the Palestinian state. PLO is strongly against it and saying that it cannot provide Jews with security in the future Palestinian state. This will leave us with a Palestinian state for Arabs only, and a mixed state for both Jews and Arabs (Israel, as it is now...).

And this is also ok, under one condition - the Palestinians need to acknowledge that the mixed state is not a mixed state, but a Jewish state. Here exactly lies the problem. Neither PLO nor Hamas are willing to acknowledge the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state.

So, we are forced to live in a status quo. We cannot simply retreat from area C, because we will need to move about 800 thousands of Israeli Jews from their homes, and will create a terrorist state that does not accept Israel's right to exist (exactly what happened in Gaza when Israel has retreated from it ~10 years ago). We cannot stay in area C, because by doing so we create a lot of clashes between Arabs and Jews.

And we definitely cannot let the Arabs from West Bank and Gaza freely into Israel. This will lead to bloodshed and civil war between Arabs and Jews - pretty much like it was before 1948.

The solution is to have a real leadership at the Palestinian side that will be brave enough to acknowledge Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state. This is something that must happen in order to the two-state solution to become a real option. Until then, we don't have any other option - but to wait.

The purpose of this post is to make sure that you at least understand how complex this conflict is. Listening to anyone that says that "Israeli are occupiers and killers" or "All Palestinians are terrorists", without understanding the basic geography and population distribution, is creating hatred that only delays the solution of this already almost impossible to solve conflict.

And I did not even begin to talk about different views among Israel Jews, population distribution and geography...

I hope this will sched some light on the issue.

"...the Palestinian aggressiveness as fear in a hopeless situation where their President don't seem to get any closer to peace..."

Hammas, the PA, and the Palestinian mullahs called for their citizenry to attack and kill Israeli citizens. That's not fear and hopelessness, it's following orders.

Maybe if Hamas and the PA would spend the money they receive from the international community, including Israel, on infrastructure and education instead of tunnels, weapons, and indoctrination schools, their citizens would be better off. Not using them as human shields and bombs would probably help as well.

There's also the fact that no Islamic leader who desires to retain his position of authority can sign a peace treaty with Israel. Their signature on that document would mark the end of their political life...or more likely, their life.

Being that the Palestinians voted these groups in to power, I find it exceptionally difficult to feel sympathy for the position they find themselves in. It's what they wanted.

@Baskinell

I could not get past your second paragraph without commenting.

Right from the start you reach for the classic obfuscation, which confuses the nation Israel with the religion Judaism. I understand anti-semitism to mean hostility or prejudice against Jews. That is all of them, not just the ones who live in Israel. Even your own figures show that less than half of them (6m of 14m total) live in Israel and you rightly point out that the population of Israel includes members of other religions. It must be possible to criticise the government of Israel, the elected representatives of the people, without being labeled anti-semitic.

I will have a read of the rest of your post now.

@diplomat61 Tell it to the BDS movement who have almost stopped Matisyahu to appear in a festival in Spain, despite him not having Israeli citizenship and being an American Jew.

@Middelfart: "Steephie, I hope you do not fall for such simple propaganda. Cause then you have a lot to learn from this game."

What are you talking about? I just said I didn't see it in the news and I think it's significant enough to be in the news.

@Baskinell

It is undoubtedly a complex situation with no easy answer. Whatever the solution is it will take exceptional leadership from both sides to deliver it in the face of entrenched hatred and bigotry.

What I do criticise is the Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, particularly those in Gaza. When you blockade the country, prevent access to jobs and education, and destroy much of its infrastructure you are playing into Hamas's hands. When they have no hope for a better future people, especially young men, do stupid things like throw stones, fire missiles or blow themselves up in the middle of a crowd. Yes, the Gazans elected Hamas, that was their right and Israel has to deal with the elected government. Creating a ghetto and locking people in is not a solution. Israel, more than any other country, should recognise that.

The West Bank is less troubling but still awful. Why should Israel have any control at all over another country? Why are 800 thousand Israelis living there at all? So what if they have to move back? Your government allowed them there in the first place, your government will have to find a solution to bringing them back. The arrogance of Israel, seeking to control its neighbours, only dealing with those that it finds acceptable is a big part of the problem.

@diplomat61 "Tell it to the BDS movement who have almost stopped Matisyahu to appear in a festival in Spain, despite him not having Israeli citizenship and being an American Jew."

Happy to do so. They are as wrong as you are.

Finally some news about Israel (the following message appeared on my facebook feed: "After months of provocations, Israeli state repression and settler attacks have resulted in a widespread anti-colonial uprising of Palestinian youth. Israel has sought to put down this movement with extreme violence – at least 25 Palestinians have been killed, while over 1,300 have been wounded by live fire or rubber-coated steel bullets since the beginning of the month.

Once again, when Palestinians are under attack from a heavily armed occupation military, our government remains silent, and refuses to take action to sanction Israel, even when it’s leaders openly declare they have no interest in ever giving up the occupied Palestinian territories.

This is not a war between two equal sides– it is a struggle between oppressor and oppressed, the coloniser and the colonised.

So we ask you to join us on the streets this Thursday 15th October at 5pm at The Spire on Dublin’s O’Connell Street to send out a simple message in solidarity with our Palestinian sisters and brothers: ‘Stop The Violence Against Palestine – Boycott Israeli Terrorism – Justice for Palestinians”.

Organised by the Ireland-Palestine Solidarity Campaign, supported by PalFest Ireland and the Irish Anti-War Movement."

@diplomat61

Regarding Gaza: Gaza is controlled by Hamas. Hamas is an organization which goal is the destruction of state of Israel. This is their stated objective and they are acting on it. Missiles are being fired all the time from Gaza into Israeli cities. Not at army - cities. We are not dealing with Palestinians there - we are dealing with Hamas and its policy.
Nobody is starving in Gaza. We send tons of humanitarian aid every day. We will not open borders with Gaza, as long as the goal of the ruling party there is the destruction of state of Israel.
However, Gaza has two borders. Not one. The other border is with Egypt. You may ask yourself why Egypt is also closing the border with Gaza (which they controlled prior to 1948).

Regarding the West Bank. Up until 1967, Jordan controlled the West Bank. Palestinians could have created their own country in the West Bank until 1967. They didn't, because they didn't feel the need - Jordan treated the West Bank as its own territory.

In 1967, during the 6 days war, Israel has conquered the West Bank. After a cease fire, Jordan has refused to go back to the West Bank - because they didn't want to deal with the Palestinians (there are enough Palestinians in Jordan and Jordanians perceive them as a factor that destabilizes Jordan). So, here it was - a territory without a country claiming it to be its. So, Israel has started to settle this territory, starting of 1967. Am I happy with it? No. I think that this further makes the situation even more complicated. You could disregard it if Palestinians would guarantee the safety of Jews in the Palestinian country-to-be, but they are not willing/able to do so (unlike Israel, which has about 2 million Israeli Arabs in Israel, who are an intricate part of the country with their own representatives in Israeli parliament).

So, to say that we somehow occupy Palestine is just a lie. There was no country called "Palestine". Gaza Arabs and West Bank Arabs lived under two different countries - under Jordan (West Bank) and Egypt (Gaza).

We do want to reach a two state solution, to CREATE a Palestinian state. However, as you have seen from my previous post, it requires the Palestinian leadership to acknowledge Israel as the Jewish state, otherwise you will have a Palestinian state for Palestinians only and a joint Jewish-Palestinian state.

@orathaic

What you have pasted from your feed is what makes most of Israeli Jews to believe the world is against us. Even in this round, during which Israeli citizens are being butchered, literally, by Palestinians, Europe rallies against the Jews.

This leads to a feeling that we have no one to trust, especially not in Europe, the biggest graveyard of the Jewish people.

@Baskinell

You really have been drinking the Kool-aid.

You have no choice but to send food aid to Gaza. Even the Germans supplied food to the ghettoes in Poland so the bar is set pretty low on this. I doubt the US would stand for you starving two million people to death either. The people of Gaza are denied practically everything else that the people of Israel enjoy. Do you wonder that they fire missiles at you? Do you think they are going to stop? Waiting for Hamas to go away (somehow) is not dealing with them. It is exactly the opposite. Dealing with those you consider terrorists is never nice. I did not like to see British politicians talking to IRA leaders (or, for that matter, to Menachim Begin) but it has to be done for the sake of peace.

Residents of the West Bank may not have felt the need for a country before the 1967 invasion but I bet they changed their mind afterwards. If Israel had withdrawn at the end of the war they might have formed one too, it should have been their choice. Now they only control 3% of their own territory, what they do control is fragmented and movement is restricted by walls and gates. Meanwhile 800,000 foreigners have moved in.

In summary, Israel is ghettoising 2 million people in Gaza and seizing the land of 2 million plus in the West Bank. Great "nation building" effort.

Your two state proposal is flawed too. The government of Israel should control the internal affairs of the state of Israel in the service of the people of Israel. That is one state. What happens in the other state, presumably called Palestine, is a matter for the citizens of that state; they alone should be the ones who decide. Israeli insistence that they adopt policy X or principle Y is clear interference; Israeli's would not tolerate that so why should Palestinians?

The other part of your two state solution is problematic too. If Israel is a Jewish state, what happens to non-Jewish Israeli citizens? More nasty echoes from history.

I note that, again, you are confusing criticism of Israeli behaviour with anti-semitism. Europe is NOT "rallying against the Jews". One rally, in one city, is about ill-treatment of Palestinians.

There is no doubt that terrible crimes were committed against Jews in Europe and that not enough was done to stop them. But that does not give Israel to right to commit similar crimes and yet there is a ghetto in Gaza, what amounts to a lebensraum policy in the West Bank, and talk of a state for Jews only (which sounds like something akin to the Nuremberg laws).

Europeans remember those things and do not want to see them again, anywhere. That is what makes me criticise Israeli policies and I bet most who rally in Dublin would say something similar.

I do not care what your religion is. I do care that millions of people are being treated badly. There is a huge difference between criticising the behaviour of your government and hating your religion.

"What you have pasted from your feed is what makes most of Israeli Jews to believe the world is against us. Even in this round, during which Israeli citizens are being butchered, literally, by Palestinians, Europe rallies against the Jews. "

Like what Diplomat said.

This is not official government policy in Ireland; Ireland is also not known for being a graveyard of jews; though like Diplomat said when he mentioned the IRA and making peace with your enemies - the Irish have sympathies with 'terrorists' (actually where i grew up in the south east of ireland the IRA were always seen as baddies)

So it is not surprising that the Irish identify more with the poor oppressed Palestinians 'terrorists' than with the all-powerful dominating Israelis.

Still we live in peace today with our British cousins. Though there are political and religious differences, the 'disputed' territory has come to a peace through a power sharing agreement.

Looking at Gaza, there has been an Israeli embargo, preventing internaional aid arriving by sea.

This is arguably illegal under international law, but also understandable from an Israeli perspective. People are firing rockets at you, and to avoid going in and destroyin their weapons/militants, the government is trying to starve them of materials.

Makes sense, probably saves more Israeli lives, but unfortunately it does effectively make gaza an open air prison.

With Israel acting prison warden. And there is no way that this is a long term solution... So many europeans feel Israel must be held reaponcible for the actions it is free to choose; while they expect Hamas not to be capable of stopping rocket attacks if they tried (as hatred is Israel grows with every mistreatment of the Palestinians, thus again blaming the victim of this violence, Israel, for inciting it)

Now perhaps i should be fair and admit that Israel is not entirely free to act however it wishes. The government must be seem to he acting to protect citizens. And the embargo makes sense. But long term, turning Gaza into an open air prison is seen as unjust (by the Palestinians at least, and sympathisers in Ireland) Long term this violence will continue.

And by the way, i don't know who is organising this protest; but i often see protesters waving Palestinian flags outside the Amercan Embassy and the Israeli Counsulate in Dublin. A lot of these protesters are Palestinian refugees. They might be Irish citizens by now, but there is definitely a core of Palestinian refugees at most of these protests...

Thus to claim all of Europe is against the Jews. (When disagreeing with Israeli Government policy is not equal to wanting the Israeli state to cease to exist and even that is not the same as hating Jews) I can hate US policy without hating any individual American citizens i've ever met. The same should be true of Israel.

First, I would like to thank you for the argument. It is a pleasure to discuss such things with people who are trying not to shoot empty statements into the air. I respect it.

Now, about the Gaza blockade and some history. Your arguments actually make sense - and this is exactly what Israel did back in 2005. There were quite a lot of settlements in the Gaza strip until 2005. In 2005, the Israeli government, led by Ariel Sharon, has removed these settlements from the Gaza strip. The reason for this was simple - the settlements were inside the Palestinian territory and it was causing a lot of friction and deaths on both side. The settlements have produced a lot of food using advanced agricultural techniques - a lot of people in Israel were fed by these settlements. It was very hard, but we evacuated 21 settlements and I think about 10 thousand Jewish settlers.

We hoped that by leaving Gaza, the Gazans will finally try to create their own strong economy, agriculture and proceed on the peace route.

We were wrong. The greenhouses were destroyed and looted in the first week after we have left Gaza. A year later Hamas was elected and it kicked PLO from Gaza in the "Battle of Gaza", during which Hamas killed over 100 PLO members and wounded about 500 (no UN resolution was passed after this - it's ok for the Palestinians to kill Palestinians).

During these two years, from 2005 (when Israel left Gaza) to 2007 (when Israel has started to blockade Gaza), there has been a lot of violence from the Gaza strip, even though no settlers were in Gaza. When Hamas has overthrown PLO, both Egypt and Israel closed the borders: "Following the takeover, Egypt and Israel largely sealed their border crossings with Gaza, on the grounds that Fatah had fled and was no longer providing security on the Palestinian side."

The blockade is not a full one, though. Any goods that cannot be used for military needs enter Gaza almost freely. In our experience, dual-use goods are used both for infrastructure and for military actions. Concrete, for example, is used to build underground Gaza and attack tunnels into Israeli territory - instead of schools and hospitals. Metal pipes are used to create rockets, instead of sewage system. This is why Israel cannot permit free, uninspected goods into Gaza. However, we are not preventing all goods. Any goods that come to Gaza first have to go through the Ashdod port, be inspected, and then trucks take them to Gaza.

About negotiations - Israel has always said that it is ready for negotiations with the Palestinians. Netaniyahu even said it yesterday. However, there is one condition - the Palestinians have to admit that Israel has the right to exist (see my post about two-state solution for the reason why we need it). They do not admit it.

Regarding your sayings about Israel wanting to control the Palestinian external affairs policy - this is simply incorrect. Two state solution is as it is - a two state solution. Each state should have independent external policy.


But seriously, what do you suggest we do? Leaving the West Bank without an agreement will make it into a terror state, just like it happened with Gaza. If the Palestinian state will start shooting missiles at Israel, will Israel have the right to invade it? Will the international community accept it as a full-scale war between two states, or it will blame Israel for being shot at, just like now we are being blamed for being butchered?

We cannot simply retreat from the West Bank, without a promise from the Palestinians not to attack us. The logistics challenge is also enormous - moving 800k people is almost impossible for Israel, and will only be done if there is a peace agreement.

So, I am really asking - what do you suggest that Israel will do, that is: (a) Feasible and (b) will not endanger our lives?

I think that the first thing to do is for Israel to provide a safe haven for any Palestinians who simply seek to live, in Israelian territory. It can be controlled by Israel and measures can be taken to make sure no weapons go in, but the peaceful Palestinians should have the choice to move to and from there. Remove them from the equation by moving them out of the 'war zone' and the whole process becomes easier.

You say that my statement about Israel wanting to control the Palestinian external affairs policy is incorrect. Actually, I meant both internal and external affairs in relation to specific policies (acknowledging our right to exist, that Israel is a Jewish state*) and my point remains that Israel is insisting on conditions that amount to specifying aspects of that country's affairs. You cannot have it both ways. Either the country is independent or it is not. These things have to be talked about by both sides and the sooner the better. Pre-conditions to talks just delay them, which drags out the suffering of people on both sides.

I know that over the years attempts have been made to create lasting peace. Those must continue. If one attempt fails, try something else. Oh, and a pox on any politician who exploits the situation to bolster his own position.

I don't know what the solution is, I wish that I did, but I do know that it starts with talking to the other side. Weapons, from stones to attack helicopters, will not solve anything; they are only the background music to the whole, sorry, situation.

I hope the you recognise my comments are directed at Israeli policy, not the state or its people per se (although as a democracy the people decide who the policy makers are), certainly not at Jews (FWIW I am an atheist and hold all religions in contempt). I am just as critical of the actions (it is hard to call them policies) of those on the Palestinian side too. It will take extraordinary leaders on both sides (think Sadat/Begin, Mandela/De Klerk) to make progress.

*I still want to understand what Israel becoming a "Jewish state" means, especially for non-Jewish citizens.

+1 for diploamt for tha last sentence, of what I'v read of Baskinelli's posts, the "Jewish state" is what has intrigued me the most.

Since Israel is a democracy, I would think that means in practice that the majority of the people allowed to vote should be Jews. I guess that is a somewhat valid concern, given there are more Palestinians than Israelian Jews.

Presumably Israel remains secular, or secular-ish, like a lot of states.

To be clear, I think it's a somewhat valid concern because there are reasons to think that a Muslim majority in Israel might not work out great for the Jews, and Israel was supposed to be 'their' state.

Israel as a state where Jews are safe and welcome; you could call that a Jewish state

(like the Jewish Autonomous Oblast in Russia's far east - though that Soviet experiment effectively ended with Stalin's death, and i don't know if it was forced removal of Jews to the far east that this Oblast was populated)

The other interpretation is a Jewish a theocracy where the law is determined from the Torah. The issues diplomat raises are interesting.

"So, I am really asking - what do you suggest that Israel will do, that is: (a) Feasible and (b) will not endanger our lives?"

I fully admit, i have no idea. Talking is a good start. Obviously i could say, 'oh well if the palestinians would just stop killing people...' - but that is equivalent to saying to any group to end violence; whether i was to criticize the US for wiping out native Americans, or Nazi's for the holocaust, or the Soviet Union for the millions of killings.

The difference between these three cases? the US can claim that the Indian nations were an external threat. The Soviet Union that the criminal subversives were an internal threat. And the Nazi's justified their cause on purifying the race (including the disabled people and gays they killed along with the jews)

These are three very different positions. And i think given the numbers it is appropriate to compare and contrast them.

Now looking at Israel and Palestine; I'm sure the Palestinians can claim that Israel is an external threat. While Israel may (under my previous claims that they are running an open air prison state) be closer to the Soviet example of an internal threat.

Now I would condemn both but i don't know that this comes close to answering the question of what Israel can do.

Still it is much harder to criticise Hamas if you don't see them as an organisation which is capable of stopping violence against Israel even if it wanted to. (and arguably if it did want to it would cease to be Hamas; and possibly lose it's ability to do anything - which if true, would make negotiations much more difficult...)

Are the three example of US, Soviet and Nazi violence/murder equivalent?

And by comparison, is the Israeli and Palestinian violence equivalent?

First, regarding the notion of "Jewish state". This was clarified in the Declaration of Independence back in 1948. You can read about it here: http://www.knesset.gov.il/docs/eng/megilat_eng.htm

This is the quote that will probably answer your question regarding non-Jewish citizens:
"The State of Israel will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations."


Regarding the suggestion of allowing Palestinians into Israel territory:
1. It contradicts the notion of two states solution. The whole point is to separate between the two nations and give each of them their own state.
2. If Palestinians are allowed into Israel, shouldn't the Jews be allowed into Palestine? IE, Gaza, etc?
3. The 3rd group of the Palestinians (the Israeli Arabs, approximately 2 million people) are already citizens. As citizens, they can move freely inside Israel. It's the Palestinians who never lived in Israel, that don't get Israeli citizenship and thus they don't get the right of passage to Israel.

Regarding Israel controlling "external policy" of the not-yet-found Palestinian state - we only want that the state that the world wants to create and that will have a very intimate border with us, which will be partially on the land of Israel, will not want our extinction. Is this too much to ask?

@orathaic, regarding US, Nazi's and Soviet Union - these cases have no common ground with the case of Israel. There has been a constant Jewish population in Palestine in the last 3,000 years. Sometimes more Jews lived here, and sometimes less (due to wars, forceful exiles, etc). The land have ALWAYS been populated by Jews - long before Arabs moved here (12th century, about 900 years ago), long before the Arabs here started to call themselves "Palestinians".

A nation cannot be an occupier in its land. We, the Jewish people have lived here long before European countries were formed. We lived here 2000 years before vikings emerged in the Northern Europe. We lived here 2400 years before the US was colonized by Europeans. We lived here during the 1st Iron Age. Do you get the historical depth of the Jews in Israel? Iron age!

The first time we were exiled from Israel was 600 hundred years before Christianity was born.

I really suggest you read about Jewish population in Israel here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_Judaism_in_the_Land_of_Israel

To say that we are somehow occupying Palestine is like to say that Native Americans occupy America. The difference between US case and Israel is that in our case, the native people have won, while in the US they have lost.

Having said all of this, I want to emphasize that most of the Israelis see the Palestinian right for their own country. Ancient history aside, they identify themselves as a nation and by such should have their own country - in the borders accepted both by Israel and the Palestinian leadership.

We need to conduct negotiations, but Palestinians are not ready for it. They have demands BEFORE we even sit near the negotiations table. As much as I don't like our PM, Netaniyahu, I cannot ignore the fact that he has always been calling for the Palestinian leader, Mahmud Abbas, to negotiate with Israel - the last time being only a few days ago. This are Palestinian leaders that are not willing to sit near the negotiation table.

Is the situation complex? Yes. What can the world do? Force Palestinians to negotiate with us. Unfortunately, this is not what the world does. It is much easier to oversimplify this situation and say that Israel are the bad guys and Palestinians are the victims.

"The recent Israeli war confirmed on the ground the crux of what the Israeli government had been declaring in the closed rooms of negotiation. This war came after long, difficult negotiations for more than eight months under the auspices ofthe United States and the efforts of President Barack Obama and tenacious efforts of his Secretary of State John Kerry. We engaged in this endeavor with open minds, in good faith and with a positive spirit and engaged with the efforts of the American administration in the most constructive manner, and we put forth our firm positions based on the resolutions of international legitimacy, which receive the overwhelming support of the nations of the world. And, we genuinely respected all of our commitments and understandings. Even as we watched the ongoing and escalating Israeli violations, we exercised unimaginable self-restraint, silencing our cries and tending to our own wounds in order to give the American efforts the best possible chance for success.

However, and as usual, the Israeli government did not miss the opportunity to undermine the chance for peace." -Mahmud Abbas September 30 2015

Not that I believe a iota more to Abbas than I believe to you, Baskinelli, just wanted to show how hard is to avoid the partial discourses contradict each other

“I’ve been calling day in, day out, in every forum. In the United Nations, in the U.S. Congress, in Israel, in Jerusalem, in Tel Aviv. … I’ve called on President Abbas to resume unconditional negotiations immediately,” he said, the BBC reported.

“I’m willing to meet him, he’s not willing to meet me, and you ask me about the resumption of negotiations?” Mr. Netanyahu asked angrily. “Come on, get with the program. These people don’t want negotiations, and they are inciting violence. Direct your questions to them.”

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/oct/16/benjamin-netanyahu-get-with-the-program-palestinia/