A confirmation is not an election.

Ah yes the commissioners, remind me again who '"elected" them?

What you mean gravy train Mandleson, Kinnock (and family) weren't elected at all?Surely not (!)

It's just semantics but personally no, I wouldn't call the procedure an election. Calling it a democratically legitimated appointment would be more accurate in my opinion.

I see, I must have missed something, are the commissioners elected by their national parliaments then?

Remind again what rate of tax to the commisioners pay on their earnings?

Can this story possibly be correct?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/8277419/Baroness-Ashton-reaps-benefits-from-EU-tax-loophole.html

Anyhow, back to Scotland...

It matters not whether Scotland will remain in/be admitted to the EU or if Scotland will retain the pound. What matters is that neither of these are certain and that is a blow to the independent campaign. They want to play down Scots fears that independence is a leap into the unknown.

Ask yourselves this, if your region was to break from the current government, would you want to know with certainty that your currency, membership of other international bodies such as EU, NATO, UN etc was secure? Or would you vote for independence and hope those things will be resolved?

I am not sure about the Scots, I do not think anyone ever is! The Catalans, however, are cast on certainties to vote for independence no matter what. This is what really troubles Borrosso et al.

We are talking about Scots here, and the thing about Scots is that they are very British and there's nothing like the feeling that foreigners are telling you what to do to put a Brit's back up.

We do have a lot more certainty than we used to. We now know that joining the EU will be a long and tricky process that, at best, will come with a boatload of conditions (methinks euro membership will be one of them) and at worst will be impossible.

We know that keeping the pound will also be tricky and monetary union with the UK is most likely impossible, and if it does happen will involve a significant loss of sovereignty.

Things are getting clearer every week and looking ever bleaker, but it remains doable. If the people really want it, it will happen.

Bizarely - the solution for the Scots in the EU could be the UK's withdrawal if a referendum ever happens whilst the Scottish independence is still being discussed. The Scots could retain the UK's membership and the rump of the UK could walk away.

U can't see it happening. The Scots decide before the UK has its referendum, which makes it awkward, and it depends on the Tories winning the election (which might happen) and the UK voting to leave (which won't).

"The Catalans, however, are cast on certainties to vote for independence no matter what. This is what really troubles Borrosso et al."

Why would Borosso care about Catalonia per se? He's not Spanish.

Octavious - the scots decide before the potential referendum, but they don't become independent overnight, that's just start of the process.

I think as we get closer to UK general election, labour will have to match the Tories commitment to a referendum. If a referendum is ever held it will be closer than you think.

The EU establishment would very much care about Catalonia. For one thing Madrid does not want to see them go and is desperate to avoid a referendum. I guess things would be very similar with the Northern League in Italy, but maybe not so cut and dry. Scotland and its referendum is a very bad precedent for the eurocrats, particularly if there were to be a vote for independence. In effect it would lead to the Balkanisation of, what was intended to be, the great unifying project; just the opposite of their agenda.

@Maniac

"If a referendum is ever held it will be closer than you think"

No it won't. It can't be before the next election because the Lib Dems will never allow it. I used to think Labour would match the promise, but they're showing every sign of not doing so. The only way we will get a referendum is with a Tory win, and then there will be a battle of wills between the leadership, who will want it as late as possible, and the backbenchers, who will want it early.

Speaking as a half Scot (my mother was from Falkirk) with the majority of my relations still living in Scotland, the word on the street (according to various Aunts/Uncles) is however much many of them love the idea, they are simply not willing to take the risk. Living in the South East of England there seems to be a mixture of opinion here that ranges from "let the kilt wearing bastards go " to, "if they gain independence it will be Yorkshire next"................now that does sound like a good idea to me!

" In effect it would lead to the Balkanisation of, what was intended to be, the great unifying project; just the opposite of their agenda."

The cases are not all alike. As has already been mentioned, the UK agreed to allow for a referendum. Balkanization is really an offensive word.

And if Spain's wishes were controlling among the so-called 'euro-crats' then so many of them wouldn't have been recognized unilateral declarations of independence elsewhere, as Spain has not. But the others, in fact, did. Scotland doesn't represent disunity because they actually want to be a cooperative member of the EU.

fulhamish: I have no idea what Barroso's stance on any of this is, but the Scottish independence movement is not based on ethnic nationalism. The Catalan independence movement is, and it is ethnic nationalism that has historically been Europe's doom and caused countless deaths.

I sometimes wonder which world you live in, JECE. In what possible way could Catalan going through a similar process to Scotland cause Europe's doom and countless deaths?

Doesn't Catalonia claim the Balearic Islands, Andorra, Alguero in Sardinia, Rosellon in France, and even Valencia?

If Catalans are racially exclusive and territorially irredentist I can see how this raises the specter of violence not only in Spain but elsewhere in Europe.

"Doesn't Catalonia claim the Balearic Islands, Andorra, Alguero in Sardinia, Rosellon in France, and even Valencia? "

A claim that would generate exactly zero support in the rest of Europe, with the possible exception of Scotland ;-)

I also have an irritating dentist, but it's never made me want to declare war on Spain over some islands.

Seriously though, violence is what inevitably happens when a population is denied the option of a diplomatic solution to their grievances. JECE offers a threat to peace, not a solution to violence.

I am not sure about the differentiation of nationalism into distinct categories. I am no expert, but it does occur to me that there is so much overlap and potential movement over time that such categorisation is rendered meaningless.

On the EU it is, at its heart, a movement for the establishment of a super-state, based on pan-European nationalism. Such a movement is the antithesis of the formation of new smaller national units such as Scotland and Catalonia. Indeed, Borroso expects a Spanish veto over Scottish entry.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/independence-referendum-ec-president-jose-3154114

And he refuses to meet with the president of Catalonia

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/video/barroso-unavailable-brussels-meeting-president-152028260.html.

Octavious: No, both Rajoy and Mas are denying the option of a diplomatic solution. More autonomy could be negotiated if either were interested. If you consider my visions of death and destruction to occupy an alternate plane of reality (I'm not so confident; ethnic nationalism, after all, was the driving force behind the recent Yugoslavian Wars), then consider that the Spanish autonomous communities – which even include the capital province of Madrid – are the flagship of decentralization. Spain may be a bastion in certain ways of feudal political thought you consider backwards, but look at the shocking contrast between the Spanish and French attitude towards regionalism and centralization. In France, where is the political activity of the Basque, Bretons, Flemish, Alsatians, Savoyards, Corsicans, Occitans (which should occupy half of France) and – yes – Catalans, amongst others? France has systematically (and largely successfully) exterminated these cultures, especially in a period after the Second World War which has been characterized as genocide. Even if many of the same ideas seeped into the country (perhaps most notably the provincial scheme), Spain has always been reluctant to follow the French example to its logical conclusion. As a direct result, Catalonianism, etc. lives on in Spain. Either the Spanish or French example will be vindicated by the reckless 'process' Artur Mas started. If the Spanish example is vindicated, decentralization with the accompanying flourishing of culture might be pursued elsewhere. If the French example is vindicated, a dark cloud of oppression and perhaps violence will strike at regionalism worldwide. Do you think that I am exaggerating? Consider the various reactions to Kosovo's declaration of independence getting recognized by so many powers. Perhaps I do live on another planet because no-one else seems to have noticed, but judge for yourself whether the Kosovan declaration may have provoked death:

Sri Lanka breaks truce with LTTE: 2 January 2008
Kosovan declaration of independence: 17 February 2008
Anjouan invaded by AU/Comoros: 25 March 2008
Anjouan conquered by AU/Comoros: 26 March 2008
Georgia invades South Ossetia: 7 August 2008
Israel invades Gaza: 27 December 2008
Sri Lanka destroys LTTE and conquers Tamil Eelam: 18 May 2009
violence breaks out Kokang region of Myanmar with government troops: August 2009

Would you suggest that none of Sri Lanka, the Comoros, Georgia, Israel and Myanmar looked to the international reaction to Kosovo before commencing/redoubling military hostilities against their own armed separatists who occupy land? (I'll remind you that there are only a handful of armed separatist movements which occupy land, so war breaking out in five cases is a significant number.) A similar reaction where regionalist privileges worldwide plummet could be expected were a Catalan independence referendum to go ahead.

out Kokang --> out in Kokang
referendum to go ahead. --> referendum to go ahead, and there are far more regional cultures in the world than there are separatists in control of land.

"France has systematically (and largely successfully) exterminated these cultures"

Exterminate is rather a strong term that I disagree with, but yes, being evil works. If if didn't work there would be no point to it. Spain did things rather better than France (which frankly is a poor yardstick to measure yourself against), but not being evil in the past is bo excuse to be a little bit evil in the future. One doesn't use 20 years of not beating your wife as a green light to give her a kicking if she crashes the car.

As far as johnny foreigner in distant lands are concerned, I really don't see why anyone in Spain should give a damn. If there was a 99% chance that a Catalan referendum would give India an excuse to start a nuclear civil war it shouldn't make a blind bit of difference. Everyone's first duty is to their home. If bastards abroad want to use that as an excuse to kill each other, then let the buggers die.

Let Octavious die.

"I am not sure about the differentiation of nationalism into distinct categories. "

There are different conceptions of citizenship and thus different conceptions of nationalism. Jus Soli - Right of the Soil; and Jus Sanguinis - Right of the Blood.

Nations that were politically divided for a long period of time and only recently acquired a common territory, like for example Germany, have traditionally based citizenship on common descent - Jus Sanguinis. Nations that were territorial units first and comprised a multitude of different ethnicities and whereby the state tried to forge a common cultural identity in lieu of ethnic variance have traditionally based citizenship on territory of birth - Jus Soli (France).

Remind me why you see yourself as holding a higher moral position than the likes of krellin, Jamie?

"If there was a 99% chance that a Catalan referendum would give India an excuse to start a nuclear civil war it shouldn't make a blind bit of difference. Everyone's first duty is to their home."

Nuclear war affects the earth. Period. So, yes, it *should* matter to *everyone* if an action can almost be guaranteed to lead to a nuclear war and the resulting nuclear winter that kills massive numbers around the globe.