Jesus Christ spoke 'mericuhn, of course!

Goddamn pointy-headed intellectuals, and Latinos and Indians and Jews and God knows who else...fucking Coca-Cola, selling out like that...daring to have a multi-ethnic singing of "America the Beautiful" with different immigrant groups, like this is a land of immigrants or something...

THE LORD COMMANDS YE TO SPEAK AMERICAN!

(Little-known fact--Jesus did NOT, in fact, have red wine at the last supper...he had Cherry Diet Coke instead...and see how you betray his white-skinned blue-eyed legacy now, you America haters...JUDASES!)

OK, I've had my fun now.

I'm muslim, and I'm open-minded enough to refer to the great Being in the respective language that I'm speaking.

Yusuf Ali, an islamic scholar famous for his most popular and eloquent translation of the Quran, translated 'Allah' to 'God' in his original translation. Since after his death, his translations have all been changed from God to Allah. My guess would be to closer reflect the religion's roots, but I wouldn't argue that today it's being use as a tool for islamophobia.

@rollerfiend, thanks for that, was just an idle thought which had never occurred to me... it's good to get a more knowledgeable answer than my guesses. :)

I would guess that Christians (or Westerners really) not being aware that Allah is just Arabic for God are far more common than Muslims (or Arabians) not being aware that God is just English for Allah. I wouldn't see this as islamophobia necessarily though, just ignorance.

Putin, "What I'm getting at is why can't Rama and Jesus both be manifestations of the same god? Certainly the concept of the trinity allows for one god to appear in multiple forms. Couldn't the trinity be extended to include other forms? "

-There are many reasons, but one of them is because Christ said "“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6) He didn't add, or someone like me.

But Christianity is not unique in this. Most religions have beliefs that cannot be reconciled with other religious.



"And I echo the question from Orathaic. You earlier claimed god's mind is unknowable, in which case, how can we know that the Christian path to salvation is correct?"

-I don't recall claiming that. We have a limited understanding of his mind. It is given to us through the Bible, and it provides us the path to salvation.

How do "I" know it is correct? By faith: "Now faith is the assurance (the confirmation, [a]the title deed) of the things [we] hope for, being the proof of things [we] do not see and the conviction of their reality [faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses]." (Hebrews 11:1)

But, you didn't ask how "I" know it is correct, you asked how "we" know it is correct? To that, I would have to say, it would have to come to each and every one personally like it has to millions of others. You may want to read the bible and see if it comes to you. I would even suggest that you challenge God by praying "If you are the one true God, please reveal yourself to me" before you read it. If he is, how can he deny your challenge? If he isn't you just mumbled a few nonsensical words, before reading a book. No harm done. The book of John is a good place to start.

Oscar (and others),
"Some Christians actually live in the Arabic world and Arabic is their native language. Guess what word they use for that same God both you and them profess your worship for? That's right. They call him Allah, which is just the Arabic word for God and has been so long before Islam even came around. And yes, that includes translations into Arabic of your precious bible."

"I might add that Jesus spoke Aramaic, and in that language God is Elah."


You you disputing the meaning of a particular word. I am disputing that the God, (or whatever word you would like to use), that Christians believe is different from the God of Islam. They are different even if you use the same word. Simply calling them the same does not mean they are the same.

Devon, maybe Jesus was referring to the people specifically at that time and place, when he said "no one comes to the Father except through me"? And not to people say in a further away land like India or Japan, where he obviously did not preach?

Just take Moses for example. Moses taught his people the way to God through what he was given, the Torah. People at the time who heard him, went to the Father through Moses, not Jesus. Do you see what I'm saying? The same goes for the countless people around the world who at whatever time or place, received guidance towards God, whether they have muslim or buddhist or hindu

Honestly, I truly believe that if Jesus met Muhammad or Buddha or any other good-believing person, he would not contest against them........... I think you know this to be true as well

Devon, muslims refer to the Allah as the God who created Adam and Eve, saved Noah from the flood, who parted the sea for Moses, and in addition rose Jesus to heaven.

Is this not the same God?

Further, Jesus himself prayed and called to a God called Elah......yet you are saying Allah is a different god! Do you see your ignorance?

Rollerfiend, If so, it would go against almost all Christian scholarly teaching. So much so, that most mainline denominations would likely call it false teaching.

And you are incorrect, I do believe Jesus would have contested against Buddha and Muhammad. But that is purely conjecture, so it is not really worth debating.

Devon, remember that you are talking about Jesus, someone who is extremely kind and understanding. If he happened to find fault with Muhammad or Buddha, for arguments sake, what would he think of us laypeople? If Muhammad or Buddha don't go to heaven, do you think you and me have a chance?

Rollerfiend, Just because two people use the same word to refer to "God", "Allah", or whatever word you want to use, doesn't make the object of that word the same.

If my name is "Joe" and a different person's name is "Joe". Are we the same person? Of course not. This is the same logic you are trying to use, and it is false logic.

Yes Devon, but if I say Joe is blue eyed, about 5'9 and I went to the same highschool as him and he was friends with Adam etc etc etc. Then my bet is that he's the same Joe. Or Joey, whatever you call might call him.

What's the point of using rational logic to debate religion and God with believers? A truly god-believing and god-fearing individual can't be convinced through logic, only through scripture, that anything they believe is "wrong" or inconsistent with how things are. Logic and science and reason take worldly observations and creates a set of laws then that must explain all the observations. If enough observations counter the principle of the law, then the existence of the law is questioned. Religions take a book or multiple books about the way the world was created and how its natural laws should be applied, affirms it as fact without question, and uses observations in the world as only ways to confirm the truth of those words. By definition, the beliefs of religious people aren't up for logical debate. The people that listened and followed prophets in the old days were all ignorant or lost individuals, and the followers today are just as ignorant and lost on average. They're not bad people at all, but they need the comfort of something to definitely tell them how things are, otherwise they flounder without a way to find purpose in life.

Yea I watched the whole Nye vs. Ham debate.

"How do "I" know it is correct? By faith: ..."

Really? That's a great way of "knowing" things. Here are some quotes of other people that known things to be correct by faith.


How can you doubt the self-evident fact of the Invisible Pink Unicorn? Would not all reality fail if it did not exist? (Proof) For it says right here in the Book of Invisible Beasts and Lovely Equines (Unicorns chapter 2 verse 34) "For I (the Invisible Pink Unicorn) am the sustainer of reality." (sic) Obviously if there were not the Invisible Pink Unicorn we would not be here. [Benjamin Franz]

Invisible Pink Unicorns are beings of great spiritual power. We know this because they are capable of being invisible and pink at the same time. Like all religions, the Faith of the Invisible Pink Unicorns is based upon both logic and faith. We have faith that they are pink; we logically know that they are invisible because we can't see them. [Steve Eley]

Rollerfiend, "If Muhammad or Buddha don't go to heaven, do you think you and me have a chance?"

YES: "8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)
-This is the primary difference between Christianity and almost all other religions. Salvation is a free gift. We don't have to earn it. And we don't deserve it.

No offense, but Devon, you're really looking at everything with a closed mind, with almost a tunnel vision. Try and broaden your horizons and scope. You'll grow spiritually and religiously

y2k,

yeah it's true, I believe in God blindly. Kinda like how I love my family unconditionally. Faith isn't something you can 'prove', although you can find reasons to believe. It's something that cannot be grasped by intellect, or specifically the mind. It's a matter of the soul.

Awesome, then there's nothing more to discuss :). I have absolutely no problem with people of faith, but it is because of this nature of faith that I have a huge problem with those who prosthelytize.

"Salvation is a free gift. We don't have to earn it. And we don't deserve it."

In other words, no matter how horrible a person you are you will still get salvation as long as you accept God. It's a rather bad incentive for people to behave morally IMO, which is funny as a lot of Christian people think you can't be moral without faith in the Christian God.

You know, it is because of this nature of faith, that everyone from a unassuming child to a all wise genius can know God.

And consequently lose all desire to learn about the world and how it really works since a fixed version is just being thrown at you to believe without question. Sounds great...

"He didn't add, or someone like me. "

If he had, it'd have been beneficial. I don't see why Christians insist on the centrality and exclusivity of Jesus, so long as others get to the same overall message. Oh well.

that is true enlightenment y2k! when you know the truth, it shall set you free...

this is what Buddha did, he didn't conjecture to find enlightenment, he sat down under a tree and meditated....

Oscar, "In other words, no matter how horrible a person you are you will still get salvation as long as you accept God."
-Yes! This is the main difference from all other religions.

"It's a rather bad incentive for people to behave morally IMO, which is funny as a lot of Christian people think you can't be moral without faith in the Christian God"
-Christians are not motivated to act morally in order to please God (or at least they don't need to), they are motivated to act morally in gratitude for the free gift. (but are not obligated to)

Well I'll try my damn hardest to not get blinded by enlightenment over the course of my life then.

Y2K, "And consequently lose all desire to learn about the world and how it really works since a fixed version is just being thrown at you to believe without question. Sounds great..."
- That's not necessarily true. I have an intense desire to learn about the world and how it really works. I am just not limited by what I can see in order to understand it.

But what is the opposite of enlightenment? ignorance :)

"I am just not limited by what I can see in order to understand it."

Wrong. You see understanding in things that is only there because of your belief in God. So you can maybe "understand" something through God that I can't understand yet. So you're happy and content with your understanding and that's that. I strive to understand what I don't get based on what I know to be true about the world, and am fully prepared to update my knowledge set of the world based on what I figure out. I'll take my approach to learning and believing every time.