@dirge--"But, this is red herring. People throw games on WTA, too. [...]
My point is, the most common reason why people "throw" games has nothing at all to do with PPSC."

Uh, no, dirge. *Your* argument is the red herring. Whether or not people sometimes act against their best interests in either WTA or PPSC has nothing to do with whether PPSC *incentivizing* throwing a solo is a problem.

"What we see on this site, and maybe most web based Diplomacy, is a high portion of early draws with only one or two players eliminated. In my experience, this happens more on WTA than on PPSC. The likely reason is that people are afraid to risk a solo. And even worse, it seems to have been institutionalized where ppl play to eliminate one or two, and than everyone wants to draw. We have every reason to predict that SoS will increase this problem."

I understand if you consider early draws an unhealthy game pattern, and even that you would dislike DSS for that reason, but you have presented no substantial arguments for why SoS would lead to "early draws" by any reasonable metric. The number of surviving players is a shitty proxy for how far the game has developed; the more appropriate proxy is how close to ending the game someone is, i.e., how big the largest country is. Most of the SoS games people have presented as 'problematic' have actually developed quite far, even though most of the players haven't been eliminated.

@ Jeff_Cutie:

a) No
b) No

Thank you, Jamie. Where did I go wrong in my math?

Because actually the strongest incentive in the "DrawA" scenario is to eliminate the player on 1 SC. That yields the second-best player a return of 17 rather than 15.

@Jamie: That doesn't mean my math is wrong. If my math is still correct, so is my inference.

I think this thread has got very circular now, on both sides, and so I think it's overdue time to try and re-conciliate these differences, so I shall begin with some greater transparency here.

We said in the original post than the removal of PPSC/SWS would be a trial, and a trial it is. This trial will be completed at the end of January, so that we have a whole month (January) to gather data from.

There are then two questions we will look to answer from this data:

A) The obvious: Has the removal of PPSC affected the silent majority of players?
B) Has this change moved us in the direction we intended it to?

A) is pretty easy to measure, and we've mentioned some of the data points we'll be looking at already.

B) has been going on throughout, and is the key here. We *have* been reading all these responses; they have not been ignored at all. We did expect a level of resistance, and it would be stupid not to have. There *are* arguments on both sides, and I'm not going to restate those now. By and large, these arguments have been made respectfully, both in public and in private, and the pros and cons will be weighed up when we can combine the hard data from A) with the soft data of B). This will be done at the end of January.

On another note: One thing that has been repeated here is that the renaming of PPSC to SWS was a passive aggressive ploy. This it was not. A very common complaint to us from new players was that they believed "Points-per-supply-cente" referred to draws, too. It was unclear. The renaming was done to fix this, in order to help new players understand how the system works. This change will not be reverted when the trial ends, whether or not SWS is brought back, but I do hope that the logic behind it is understandable.


I hope that the people who are strongly in favour of PPSC being returned can accept the next few weeks of trial, and I do strongly encourage everybody to try SoS, and Unranked games, and see how you feel about them. I hope that all sides can treat each other respectfully from now on, too. I understand there are people on both sides who are very entrenched with their views; but we are (almost) all responsible adults here.

Hellenic Riot (webDiplomacy Administrator)

I recommended a site-wide survey to ATC the other night - is that the kind of thing you're referring to?

While I'm grateful that our concerns have been read, I at least would still like replies to key points I made pages back. This can help us clarify the concerns we have for your benefit. For instance, you still seem to assume that the nomenclature change eliminates confusion.

As for the trial, key objections to PPSC listed as justifications for your change can still be hashed out in the meantime, most notably the claim that PPSC violates the game rules or their spirit.

If you can think of a better renaming for PPSC than SWS, we are open to other suggestions. As long as they're clear about the potential point rewards, and preferably easy to make an acronym out of!

@Bo - The last site-wide survey attracted very very few responses (not even triple figures, I believe). Sadly, most people just do not care enough to fill those out. I'm referring to some of the data points we've mentioned we will be analysing further up in the thread, and comparing them to historical levels, both before and after.Total games and unique players are a couple of examples here.

Have the developers ever considered a site-wide notification system through PM where ever existing account receives a message from site administration when something like this is happening? It's like your own little PA system. Completely unrelated, I know, but an idea. Don't ask me how to code it but I'm sure it can be done.

I don't think you need to shoot for triple digits. You'll get the opinions of your regulars and whoever else cares enough to reply. Pin the survey to the top of the home page and whoever cares to leave their opinion gets the opportunity. Isn't that the point of this thread anyway? You say you knew that there would be opposition and that you're reading every opinion, so it seems like some semblance of a survey anyway, just not as big as it would be if you also included those who don't use the forum.

Also, FWIW, the last site-wide survey wasn't about something nearly as encompassing as the existence of PPSC is. I forget what exactly it was, but it wasn't an issue this big. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Thank you HR. I'm a supporter of keeping a form of ppsc as an option, not the default choice. But I'd encourage players to try Sum of Squares scoring. I'm trying it out in several games. I also agree with you that we all need to calm down a bit, and work collectively to ensure this website remains the best place on the internet to play Diplomacy

can we delete this thread now?

We don't delet

^ irony.

We don't delete threads unless it's an extreme rule violation (usually illegal spam, which we get from time to time).

didn't think you would. just a private wish.

PPSC name alternative : PVED Proportional Victory , Equal Draw

since victories are based on the proportion of centers you own, and draws are rewarded equally

Question, if and when the points system is dropped and replaced with something else, will "survives" continue to be tracked? I know there has been a certain amount spewed on the topic and some high end purists would prefer it go away entirely. Just curious what the thinking is on that.

dirge still doesn't get it.

"Survived" is not a bad stat to track. "Survived" is just a less worse way of losing than being "Defeated", and therefore doesn't merit any valuation in webDip points at the end of a game.

not arguing, just asking the question.

I presume the plan is to remove "survived" tracking and to wrap it into "defeated." Anyone care to confirm that? Or, not?

Well, looks like I missed quite a bit.

SoS looks interesting. I think that it will increase the survivability of minor powers, the existence of which tend to make the mid-late game more dynamic. In one sense, this should encourage minor powers to continue giving their all, as it is less inevitable that the major powers will try to finish them off.

On the other hand, the reward for a minor power drawing is lessened, so perhaps they will be less incentivized to give it their all. Probably remains to be seen whether increased survivability will outweigh lessened rewards. Either way, minor power draws will probably be less impressive in SoS than DSS.

That being said, I will definitely miss PPSC/SwS if it is removed. It offers minor rewards and recognition for 2nd place and so on, which while rare in formal play is extremely common in casual play. Points on this site are essentially one way of quantifying a player's "reputation" of skill, and I can think of few competitive board games where the reputation of a player who frequently gets 2nd place is equivalent to the reputation of a player who frequently gets 7th. Surviving games with a high SC count is rarely easy, and while obviously inferior to a draw it seems odd to not even have the option of recognizing that through points.

Additionally, and more importantly for the serious player, PPSC/SwS adds another diplomatic tool to the arsenal of major powers. Having more carrots to offer other players, in return for their help in soloing, makes the mid-late game more dynamic. It also results in more, you know, diplomacy. In WTA, the only way to really get someone to help you solo is to appeal to their desire for entertainment or vengeance (you can also trick them into unintentionally helping you solo, but that's another tactic entirely). Why not at least have the option of adding point bribery to that list?

On the subject of a better name for SwS, perhaps Points For Survival (PFS)?

Hellenic Riot: I did provide suggestions pages back. It sounds like you all are getting overwhelmed by the amount of press in this thread and are forgetting what you have read. Offering replies would help mitigate the problems by allowing you the opportunity to channel (and understand) all the raw data you are receiving, which would aide your processing capabilities.

Anyway, my updated thoughts on the nomenclature issues can be found here: threadID=1331433.

Wait, we're considering dropping survives? Wow, this site has gotten crappy.

Why take this site, this low. Why have an activist staff?

Why all the locking of threads? This is bonkers.

There's no point in even pretending to be pleasant.

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I don't see any reason to drop survives from the stats tracking. Let's stop that rumour before it starts.