While I don't use screenshots, and I have never received them, I think they should not be banned from the game. Ultimately screenshots are just another way of communication. See Rule 3

3. Don't work around game messaging/press rules.
If you enter a game with limited press/messaging (such as global-only) then you can't use other methods such as email or PM to bypass this.

This implies that "other methods" are allowed so long as the game is full-press. I see no reason why some forms of "other methods" like email should be allowed but not screenshots, videos, telepathy, etc.

I do agree that the odds of it becoming commonplace are slim. Still, that makes PE's tactical use of them in this situation (I assume that's what happened?) VERY powerful and convincing (I don't think anybody will start to doubt the validity of a screenshot unless this actually becomes commonplace).

And the response, "just because the competition is too lazy or ignorant to take advantage of this tactic," is not, in my opinion, a valid justification for using it. All screenshots add to the game is an edge to those who are more technically savvy. In principle, they do nothing that just quoting somebody else's press can't also accomplish, but they do add a level of technical depth to the diplomacy - something I'm not sure the community wants.

It really comes down to this (the real issue, not the issue with redhouse's handling of it)...

Maybe we shoudl ban them because not everyone realizes just how easy it is to fake them and therefore are more likely to believe them real where as everyone knows how easy it is to fake a copy and paste.. But then, as was pointed out, they didn't serve the poster well in this instance. Quite the opposite actually.

But I wouldn't want a banning of all forms of "outside the site" communication. If I have a person's email address and we agree (in a fullpress non-anon game) to chat using email because I get it on my phone and they get it on theirs, well anyone can buy a phone that can receive texts and emails. If we want to meet in a bar as we live in the same city and discuss our plans face 2 face, so what. The decision to ally or not ally and our moves aren't affected by the medium. They are still based on in game information and that is what the metagaming rule is all about - not letting outside information unduly influence in-game strategy and tactics.

Actually there could be a downside to banning "outside means of communication"... what if players in a bame all want to us webcam ( or whatever), why should they be denied the right to make their own fun? Maybe the onus should be on the player creating the game to declare the boundaries prior to play? Thus redhouse is free to start his own "screenshot free games".

typo.... what if players in a *game all want to use...

http://imgur.com/GoXFa

"And the response, "just because the competition is too lazy or ignorant to take advantage of this tactic," is not, in my opinion, a valid justification for using it. All screenshots add to the game is an edge to those who are more technically savvy. In principle, they do nothing that just quoting somebody else's press can't also accomplish, but they do add a level of technical depth to the diplomacy - something I'm not sure the community wants.
It really comes down to this (the real issue, not the issue with redhouse's handling of it)..."
@YJ yes that is one of the arguments that are at the very heart of my objections to it and it has been mentioned frequently in the other thread.

"Maybe we shoudl ban them because not everyone realizes just how easy it is to fake them and therefore are more likely to believe them real where as everyone knows how easy it is to fake a copy and paste.. But then, as was pointed out, they didn't serve the poster well in this instance. Quite the opposite actually."

-There were multiple countries to employ them. It's a little bit more complicated than simply Turkey posting something and that backfiring...

Two that I know of, redhouse. And the second did so under pressure from the first (or that is my understanding.)

@YJ - "(I don't think anybody will start to doubt the validity of a screenshot unless this actually becomes commonplace). "

Which is a good argument for banning them now seeing as if someone gets one, it isn't likely to be a fake.

I would propose a ban on using outside tech as a means of simulating copy/paste where it seems more authentic (i.e. screenshots, photos, video) but not banning all forms of outside tech like the webcam games and the grey press game site.

Draugnar I think it would be unnecessarily complicated.

In my opinion, either you ban *ALL* outside communication or you ban none. If you will ban some form of communication because you are not familiar with it, then it seems to me that you are making up rules as you go.

It's not the means, but the message being conveyed. you make a simple rule.

Copy and paste is OK, but any other means of authenticating correspondence between players if banned.

Nothing complicated about it. It prevents me and fortknox from meeting at the public library and loggin in and showing each other our accounts. It prevents us from sharing passwords so we can log in temporarily and share our correspondence. Both of these are well within the realm of possible without any tech skill but would arguably provide an unfair advantage.

Of course, they are also covered by the "use common sense" and "keep the server fun" rules, but if some people need it to be more explicit, it is a simple rule. Don't share confidential press in a manner that can validate it's authenticity.

Sorry, didn't know there was another thread. Don't mean to be rehashing points already covered.

threadID=857538

@red

I don't know what game you think you're playing, but it's not Diplomacy.

Have you ever played F2F? Half the fun is eavesdropping on other players talking, trying to see what orders people write, and seeing who's talking with whom. There are some that would argue that things like entering in forged orders and moving pieces is also ok (as long as you don't get caught). (Un)fortunately, it is either impractical or posses significant security risks to allow most of these behaviors. In a way, it's a shame, because you're left with a much more censored version of the game.

While its use in anon games is still up in the air, I applaud whoever it was that tried to do something clever with print screens that is, imho, well within the spirit of the game.

We may be fighting WWI, but this is 2012 and, quite frankly, technological ignorance is not a valid excuse in an online game.

"We may be fighting WWI, but this is 2012 and, quite frankly, technological ignorance is not a valid excuse in an online game. " - QFT!

@abge, I respect you for all you do to the site, but I find what you write nonsense. I don't play much FtF, but like I said in the screenshots thread, the rules of the game are about convoy paradoxes and the difference between north and south coast, the way you organize a FtF is very much dependent on who organizes it. The game was developed before the advent of miniature cameras.
Someone who doesn't know it's very easy to falsify these images is not automatically technologically ignorant. For example, I'm not technologically ignorant and I didn't know that.

http://www.diplomacy-archive.com/resources/god/twelve.htm

Read this, then tell us that posting URLs is against the spirit of the game.

Even if you don't care about this issue or you've made up your mind already, read this! It's huge fun.

redhouse
I would like you to direct you to page 3 of the 2000 rules of Diplomacy, as published by Avalon Hill.
http://www.diplomacy-archive.com/resources/rulebooks/2000A
It clearly says, "Players....may try to overhear the conversations of others ... [that] may include exchanges of information, denouncements, threats, spreading of rumours...Public announcements may be made and documents may be written, made public, or kept secret, as players see fit."

This clearly means it is completely fit for players to spy and make whatever documents they wish, and to make documents that portray false information. It is not a stretch to claim that a screenshot therefore, is a document, and can be made public or kept secret as players see fit.

That rule has incidentally been in every single version of the rulebook that comes with the board game, and the fact that it has not been altered means it is applicable back in the days as well as now.

Dang Gobble, I think you're onto something here. Are you sure this rule was present in the very first version? Citation?

http://www.diplomacy-archive.com/resources/rulebooks/1959.pdf
First version of rules.

Page 2, under "Diplomacy".

This document may be unapplicable to the game I played. In this document, the phases are stipulated to be 30 mins or shorter and specifically apply to live games. I played a correspondence game, a different game if you want.

YES I can be infuriating in a thread designed to hate me!! :-)

I believe that the concepts of what is allowed in in live games are equally applicable to correspondence games. The major difference between live games and correspondence is the method of submitting orders and communication - and there is nothing in correspondence play that should ban the use of espionage, or creating documents for circulation, or spreading false rumours.

Mail law in the US stipulates that it's illegal to try to open someone's mail, so the rule "players may try to overhear what other players are saying" would conflict with local law. In addition, it says "documents may be written" and despite the fact that photography - which is what we are talking about here - has been invented by this time, the spreading of document does not include the use of photographic material.