4 million - 1.5 million = 2.5 million.

So unless there were no Jews present at Auschwitz, then that 6 million number has to drop as well.

What am I missing?

Technically, Israel is not a Jewish state as it does not have an official religion and an official ethnicity would be illegal. Also, the term Holocaust does not implicitly refer only to the extermination of Jews in Europe though many use it in such a way. The term that does refer exclusively to the extermination of Jews during WW2 is the Shoah.

That said, Holocaust Remembrance Day in Israel was created to ensure the memory of the roughly 6 million Jewish civilians who died in Europe would not be forgotten. While there is no animosity toward other groups, there is significant cause for the Jewish people to remember the event as it pertained to their people.

Case closed.

You are missing every other way in which Jews were exterminated, Darwyn. Those estimates don't have to go in the same way the estimates about Auschwitz go.

What the fuck does it matter if it's 2.5, 4, or 6 million? It's largely semantics and is somewhat insulting and trivializing that holocaust remembrance day is marred by petty accounting.

The fact is that Hitler, the Nazis, and many European citizens carried out the systematic extermination of Jews, Roma, and homosexuals as well as a bloody war across the world.

On Monday, one of those groups - The Jews - commemorated the tragedy. Baskineli shared with the forum that he was commemorating the tragedy with the rest of the Jews and many gentiles. The appropriate response is to share your remorse or post nothing. It's a completely inappropriate time for the debates that started here.

I'm glad to see some other people have shared this sentiment but I felt that I had to add how upsetting I found this argument.

"What the fuck does it matter if it's 2.5, 4, or 6 million?"

Because Jewish prophecies in the Torah require that 6 million Jews must "vanish" before the state of Israel can be formed. "You shall return minus 6 million."

Given the downward change to Auschwitz, I ask, are we dismissing the evidence to fit the prophecy?

It's a perfectly legitimate, scholarly question. I'm just wondering how the 2.5 million discrepency doesn't effect that six million number.

Darwyn gave this as a reference:

From 4 million in 1945 (http://www.vanguardnewsnetwork.com/wolzek/1948_AuschwitzPlaque.html)...

to 1-1/2 million in 1990 (http://www.vanguardnewsnetwork.com/wolzek/1990_AuschwitzPlaque.html).

I recomend that, unless you are intersted in reading a selection of sickening racist diatribes, you steer well clear of his references.

Um, prophecies? I think this discussion is going down a road I don't want to touch with a 10 foot pole.

That being said, it's strangely intriguing. I've never heard of these prophecies. Where are they in the Torah?

I didn't say it's not a legitimate scholarly question (although maybe it isn't. I haven't read your sources). However, I said it's an inappropriate time for your 'scholarly questions.'

Fulhamish, it's been a while since I saw something of this calibre (not counting 4chan and such), internet is a dangerous place indeed.

Haha, yeesh. I just checked out those sites. This forum tends to have some pretty well informed (read: not loony) posters but I guess not everyone can be so privileged.

Darwyn, keep the circumstantial evidence coming

and my Gradmother was present at Aushwitz but in 10 years that wont stop you from revising your estimate once again.

Ful, I am completely disappointed in you. That is completely untrue, it is never stated once in the Torah, and you are repeating vicious lies. You find the citation in the torah (you wont). Its this shit we have to deal with

In 25 years the deniers will have won.

Santa I am not sure that I understand your response to my post. Could you please explain?

Yes,

You cited a torah prophesy that doesnt exist as a basis of your argument. A fake prophesy that is used by holocaust deniers to state that the Jews made up the holocaust tho justify the state of Israel.

Darwyn gets his news from the Iranian news agency and a site that asks "Do you spend like a Nigger"

Great job darwyn, you never cease to amaze me

fuls assertion comes from an internet rumor that in my short search comes in about 4 forms, no one can decide whether the supposed prophesy comes from the Torah, or the Kabbalah.

AND ABOUT THE PLAQUE. The 6 million number came 10 years after the erection of the first plaque, and deals with census records not deaths by camp, the 4 million number was the original estimate for those killed in the ENTIRE HOLOCAUST. New research throughout the 50s upped that number.

If you notice the first plaque talks generally, the second talks specifically about Auschwitz. Theres your fucking scholarly answer Ful.

Back to the drawing board Darwyn

And ful I expect a retraction and an apology

makes you wonder how stupid these people are that they actually make such an argument from those plaques, and how stupid Darwin is to repost them

SC, reread Ful's post. He wasn't supporting Darwyn or saying anything that warranted that response (I think).

When I googled that quote to find a citation, most of the hate groups I found attributed it to a "misinterpretation" of Leviticus 25:10, but every...every...version I could find of that was pretty similar to this from the King James Bible:

"And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubile unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family. "

Anyway. I have an interesting family history tied to this. I'm mostly German. My mom's side fled the rule of the Kaiser, and ended up having to change their names to stay in the US (lol illegal immigrants). They sent three sons to the US war effort in WWII, one of whom died in France. Some members of my dad's side fled from the Nazis, feeling the policies were too extreme. Others had been in the US for some time already and are thus irrelevant to the tale.

There was nothing about my dad's side that would have had them rounded up, and at the time they left, the truth of the concentration camps was not widely known. When it became more widely known, many members of that side of the family grew very depressed that they had not done more. It's an interesting (to me) form of survivor guilt.

We always recognize Holocaust Remembrance Day, and there has been a lot of hindsight wisdom passed down about societal oppression. Thanks for sharing the videos.

Actually I misread, it was darwyn that posted the bullshit about the prophesy,

I APOLOGIZE TO FULHAMISH

OK I feel better, we are only talking about the idiocy of Darwyn here

So to repost to Darwyn,

The 6 million number came 10 years after the erection of the first plaque, and deals with census records not deaths by camp, the 4 million number was the original estimate for those killed in the ENTIRE HOLOCAUST. New research throughout the 50s upped that number.

IMPORTANT: If you notice the first plaque talks generally about "Nazi Murders", the second talks specifically about Auschwitz. Theres your fucking scholarly answer Darwyn.

Also notice, that in 1948 when Israel was founded, it was widely believed the number was 4 million, not the 6 million "prophesy"

Great detective work dipshit

That was Darwyn who cited that, Santa, not Ful.

I like how if you go to the homepage of his source it says, "No Jews, just right."

Which sounds like exactly whose opinion I'd want on this...if I wanted the most biased information possible.

I apologized to ful, king, it was my mistake.

Ahhh, got too busy reading the thread, late reply :>

Sacred, it doesnt matter if its biased, its just wrong, see above

No, I dig that, SC. Just saying. Not the source I'd go to unless I had a specific conclusion I wanted to draw.

yeah, well darwyn definately has specific conclusions he wants to draw

Santa, I accept your apology, it's no problem. I understand your anger, even if it was misdirected on this occassion.

Santa,

I'm simply asking a question...and you are foaming at the mouth. Get defensive much?

Anyway, I provided those links only to show the picture of the plaque. I'm sure you can find pictures of the plaques elsewhere, but those happened to be first ones I saw.

So, is there a prophecy in the Torah that states something to the effect "You shall return minus 6 million"? I'm wondering, cuz I don't know.

Also, did the numbers for Auschwitz drop or not?

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/history.html
The total number of six million Jews murdered during the Holocaust, which emerged from the Nuremberg trials, is also an estimate. Numbers have ranged between five and seven million killed.

The six million figure apparently came from the Nuremberg Trials as early as 1946.

So again, if six million was the number from the start, how does the decrease of 2.5 million of those killed in Auschwitz NOT effect your six million figure?

It's a simple and honest math question.

Super-Jew posted, ..."and my Gradmother was present at Aushwitz but in 10 years that wont stop you from revising your estimate once again."
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How long did it take her to count to 6 million? lol.