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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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Centurian (3257 D)
10 Dec 08 UTC
/cancel
Potential new game feature?
18 replies
Open
Mintz (177 D)
11 Dec 08 UTC
email reminders
Any chance of setting up email reminders of deadlines?

I registered for a game I forgot to log in to the site for 2 days.
0 replies
Open
Ralyndi (1106 D)
11 Dec 08 UTC
Just a quick question.
When a player reaches 0 points and has no games remaining - what happens?
6 replies
Open
Thucydides (864 D(B))
11 Dec 08 UTC
Everyone - Buy stocks!
Just doing my share to dig us out of this thing.
And hey... they are cheap after all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrarian
3 replies
Open
Su Padre (365 D)
11 Dec 08 UTC
Instructions for a draw?
How do you indicate the system you want a draw? Is there a special instruction format?
3 replies
Open
Maniac (189 D(B))
10 Dec 08 UTC
Some people form games with less than 7 players; Get used to it!
!
13 replies
Open
Jacob (2466 D)
10 Dec 08 UTC
NEW GAME: Doth Seek to Work Us Woe
77 point buy-in
PPSC
24 hour phases
+ Free coffee!! Join now!!
11 replies
Open
Mrlimmer (396 D)
11 Dec 08 UTC
Magical Game!
Whoa, what's that I see? Oh, that's right, it's the Magical Game.

Join.
0 replies
Open
xgongiveit2ya55 (789 D)
10 Dec 08 UTC
WTA Gunboat/No Press Game, 31pts 18hr phases
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=7311
1 reply
Open
superdooperbman (0 DX)
11 Dec 08 UTC
New game
Hey join my new game !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
its really cheap only 5 D's!!!.
spots will fill up quickly!!
0 replies
Open
Maniac (189 D(B))
09 Dec 08 UTC
What would it take....
....to alter the way you think on a particular subject?
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WhiteSammy (132 D)
09 Dec 08 UTC
nevermind
http://www.howstuffworks.com/carbon-14.htm
WhiteSammy (132 D)
09 Dec 08 UTC
it works off ratios to carbon-12
jman777 (407 D)
09 Dec 08 UTC
my last post was in response to trim but this one goes to sammy.

Yes. And so theoretically you could take say a piece of petrified wood, see how much carbon is in it. then see the rate of decline in wood and you would have your answer. But the problem is that it is possible that things didn't always decline at the same rate , and so if things had declined at a much faster rate in te past then having the earth be around 6,000 years old would be very logical.

I hope I made sense.
jman777 (407 D)
09 Dec 08 UTC
I need to start writing my posts faster. lol I keep on getting beaten by faster typers.
WhiteSammy (132 D)
09 Dec 08 UTC
at least you made your post
sometimes when im typing if i find that im taking longer than i intended to take ill just stop bc i know that someone else will have posted something either changing the subject or making my point for me
jhsu (137 D)
09 Dec 08 UTC
@ curlyfries, why are you blaming Einstein for something that was not in his hands to control?
Dexter.Morgan (135 D)
09 Dec 08 UTC
jman777,
you just showed us the "man behind the curtain" (Wizard of Oz reference) of Intelligent Design... in one paragraph you distinguish Intelligent Design from Creationism by saying that ID asserts that the creator did not have to be god... and then in another paragraph you say that it would be impossible for them (the creator and god) to be different. If your view represents proponents of ID then you show ID to simply be cover for Creationism... (which all of us non-ID'ers already knew).
jman777 (407 D)
09 Dec 08 UTC
Where did he do that?
Dexter.Morgan (135 D)
10 Dec 08 UTC
jman777,
as to the other arguments -
Regarding entropy:
1) Who says that the universe wasn't even more ordered before the big bang? , 2) evidence points pretty strongly to a big bang - us not understanding all of the forces involved does not disprove anything... any more than us not yet being able to detect "gravity waves" or "gravitons" disproves the existence of gravity, 3) the universe could be an "open system" - wherein energy enters and leaves it... in which case the universe "degenerating" may not even be it's fate.

Regarding carbon dating and other measurements: The fact that my daughter sometimes misreads a ruler does not prove that rulers are unreliable. Crime Scene Investigators collect evidence - the fact that some of the evidence is misleading or contaminated (e.g. fingerprints of family members in a home) does not disprove such types of evidence as unreliable by nature.

All arguments for Creationism and ID are based on three things: 1) the bible (hearsay evidence at best), 2) sowing of confusion and misinformation about the reliability of scientific methods and data without offering real data of their own, and 3) the "god of the gaps" - i.e. if we can't currently explain it, it must be God.
Dexter.Morgan (135 D)
10 Dec 08 UTC
"Where did he do that?" says jman777
---
See first paragraph and fourth paragraphs of the five paragraph long post written by jman777 and timestamped 3:30 PM Pacific Time (or 6:30 EST or 11:30 GMT)

from the first paragraph: "there is a difference between Intelligent Design and Creationism. The first just asserts that some greater power created the universe. The second asserts that God is the one who created it."

from the fourth paragraph: "Lastly, your point about the creator of the earth and God not having to be the same, I would like to argue that it would be impossible for them to be different."
jman777 (407 D)
10 Dec 08 UTC
Wait now I'm confused but anyway, I'll just respond to your second to last post.

First off, I would like to see evidence that the universe was more ordered before the big bang. My understanding was that the big bang is what created the materials that eventually formed our universe.

And yes I did make a mess of that whole first paragraph so I'm sorry about that.

About carbon dating, why are you so convinced that it is effective?

And about God and the Bible, let me start by asking you a question. How did the world begin?
Sicarius (673 D)
10 Dec 08 UTC
I used to be homophobic
jman777 (407 D)
10 Dec 08 UTC
That has no connection to this thread as far as I can tell...lol
valoishapsburg (314 D)
10 Dec 08 UTC
Well, im just going to comment on the order bit. The world as we see it is full of order, however, simply because it appears that way does not mean it is. Things are radically changing all the time, but our timespan is rather limited.

I am not speaking on a mathmatical level though, as I dont know anything about that.
Wotan (1587 D)
10 Dec 08 UTC
@jman777: hi there, thanks for bringing up this interesting subject. I'm a physicist working in cosmology and astrophysics, and I'd like to clarify a few things concerning C-14 dating and the Big Bang, if you don't mind. I’d like to apologize in advance for the length of this post.

First of all, carbon-14 dating is used to date biological remnants, not rocks. I haven't looked at WhiteSammy's link, but I'm pretty sure it says the same thing there. It basically measures the amount of the radioactive carbon-isotope carbon-14 in the physical remains of a once-living biological organism. Every living organism on Earth accumulates a small amount of carbon-14 in their cells (along with many other isotopes of carbon, but they're less interesting in this respect) through their normal metabolism, and when the organism dies, the intake of carbon-14 ends, for obvious reasons. Since carbon-14 is radioactive, the amount of the isotope in the organism slowly diminishes through radioactive decay, and this decay rate is well-known through laboratory experiments. By measuring how much or how little of the isotope remains in an organism one can determine how long time has passed since the organism died. The older the physical remains of the organism are the less accurate the method becomes and for remains older than 50,000 years it's basically useless.

The method that I think you meant to refer to is radiometric dating of rocks. It works by a somewhat similar principle, in that it measures the amount of certain radioactive isotopes and their associated decay products in rocks. However, in this case there’s not just one isotope that can be measured but many isotopes of many different elements and they all give the same result: provided the rocks were formed when the Earth formed, our planet is (at least) several billion years old. The exact number of billion of years depends on the particulars of stratigraphy and the processes of rock formation, but even when applying the widest possible margins of error it’s safe to say that the claim that the age of the Earth is in the vicinity of 6,000 years is off by several orders of magnitude and quite simply wrong. The fact that many different isotopes from samples from many different locations all around the globe give the same general result independently of each other should be considered quite compelling evidence to this effect.

I wish to emphasize one thing here: the physical process of radioactive decay and the specific decay rates of the isotopes in question are known to a great degree of accuracy and have been tested over and over again in laboratory experiments since the discovery of radioactivity some 100 years ago. The understanding of these phenomena is also the basis of nuclear power and nuclear weaponry - both endeavours that really doesn't allow for much inaccuracy, if you understand what I mean ;) In other words, there's absolutely nothing inaccurate or poorly understood about radioactive decay, carbon-14 dating or radiometric dating of rocks. It's about as solid as it gets in science, and that's pretty solid. I believe the rest of the scientific community would be extremely interested in hearing more about those incidences of inaccuracy that you claim to have heard of, since they would go contrary to anything we've ever seen or heard of. Indeed, if you're right, it would be safe to say that it's a discovery worth a Nobel prize, so I would be very grateful if you would share the info with me in person ;) I would also like to emphasize that the postulate that the rate of radioactive decay, not just of carbon-14 but of all the isotopes used to radiometrically date the Earth should somehow mysteriously be different at earlier times is completely unmotivated by observations and there’s overwhelming evidence to the contrary. To be perfectly frank, I’ve encountered these and similar claims from ID-supporters a number of times now, and the only thing it demonstrates is really a rather harrowing ignorance of the subject at hand on the part of the ID-supporters.

With respect to the Big Bang: first of all, the Big Bang is not ‘an explosion’ in the normal sense of the word, since strictly speaking an explosion is the release of energy from the rearrangement of chemical binding energies of an explosive material, usually resulting in the sudden release of a large amount of gas, the expansion of which causes a shock-wave as it propagates into the surroundings. The Big Bang, on the other hand, is an adiabatic expansion of spacetime, in which the Universe begins in a super-dense, super-hot, super-energetic state, gradually cools as a result of the expansion, and develops through a series of phase transitions and local structure forming processes into the Universe that we see today. It’s not a density expansion from a certain point in spacetime (such as a normal explosion); it’s an expansion of spacetime itself. To call this an explosion is really a misunderstanding of astronomical (pun intended ;) proportions.

The claim that the Big Bang violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics is also clearly a misconception. The early Universe can be described by fewer parameters than the current Universe can, hence in mathematical terms it was definitely more ordered / had lower entropy than the present Universe. It’s much easier, for example, to envision a simple description of the Universe just before hydrogen / helium recombination, where the Universe could basically be parametrized as a hot plasma subject to certain acoustic oscillations. This would not require many parameters to describe. Compared to that, the current Universe with all its structure, i.e. different galaxy clusters, nebulae, stars, planets and organic life, requires a far larger number of parameters (an infinity of parameters, almost) to describe. So if anything, the Second Law of Thermodynamics supports the idea of the Big Bang, not the other way round. I should emphasize, though, that to apply the Law of Entropy to the Universe as a whole is a very questionable course of action, since we do not yet have access to the full array of cosmological parameters and we don’t know if it can be considered a truly closed system, as Dexter.Morgan also wrote somewhere above.

The ‘tactic’ of claiming that the Law of Entropy contradicts the Big Bang is another clear sign of a lack of understanding of even the most basic principles of the law in question (not to mention the faulty idea that the Big Bang is ‘an explosion’). For some reason, ID-supporters never seem to grasp how devastating this is to their argumentation, and I’m sure the ID-community will go on happily using this so-called ‘argument’ for some time to come before it sinks in…

I will concede that we still don’t know the process by which the Big Bang started and what powered the initial expansion. To me, this is one of the most fascinating questions of modern physics. Our current lack of knowledge is mainly due to the fact that the energy levels at the earliest teeny-tiny fractions of the first second of the Big Bang were so vast that we have no firm understanding of the exotic physics involved and that the spatial dimensions were so small that a theory of quantum gravity needs to be developed in order to describe it. But everything since then, i.e. after the Universe had reached an age of approximately 10^-30 seconds, is really pretty well understood. It’s not like the Big Bang is one of several struggling theories, or that there’s any evidence that constitutes a problem to the theory – it’s really the only game in town and has been so since the theory of the ‘Steady State Universe’ was discarded around the end of the 1960s. By all means, feel free to enter into the ongoing scientific discussion on the subject. I’ve worked in this area for a couple of years now and believe me, there’s still plenty of heated discussions going on concerning the details of the theory, a fact for which I’m thankful, by the way! However, posing lame, obviously misunderstood and simplistic arguments like ‘the Big Bang is contradicted by the Second Law of Thermodynamics’ demonstrates a radically ignorant and conversationally unwise disregard for the last 50 years of cosmological research, so people who go ahead and pose those claims anyway should be prepared to be ridiculed.

I should mention that there are realistic candidate theories for the actual triggering mechanism behind the Big Bang, among others the so-called ekpyrotic models, which are derived from String Theory. So even though we don't know yet, we're certainly not without a clue. Due to the observational limitations mentioned above, however, these models are still far away from being testable, but I like to think we’ll get there eventually. Until then, you are of course free to claim that god pushed the button, or that the flying spaghetti monster or the fairy god mother did it for that matter, but however you bend it that’s really just intellectual defeatism, IMHO.

Sorry for the long post, I hope this has been at least a little bit helpful. If you got this far without taking a break you deserve a cookie ;)
valoishapsburg (314 D)
10 Dec 08 UTC
That was very helpful
Dexter.Morgan (135 D)
10 Dec 08 UTC
jman777,
we have no idea what was before the big bang... or even at the moment of the big bang... it's a bunch conjecture from what I can tell. I was simply saying that given a law of physics (entropy) I must conclude that: either the universe was more ordered or the universe is an open system. I cannot think of another possibility without violating the second law of thermodynamics (but then I'm not a physicist).

As to carbon dating (and other radiometric dating methods such as Uranium-Lead and Potassium-Argon) - I am confident in them because I studied the concepts and the applications in college (I am a geologist). Hard to explain the subtleties to a layman - particularly someone vested with not believing because it would contradict their religious views of a literal interpretation of the bible... But yes - I am convinced. For them to not be valid the laws of physics would have to change over time... and there is no evidence of that and no reason to suspect that that is the case. Indeed there is much evidence against a changing set of physical laws being sufficient (if true) to explain the apparent age of the universe. Basic mathematical principles would have to be violated as well.

How did the world begin? No one truly has the answer to that - yet, at least. Some philosophical traditions posit that the world has always been - for infinite time. (That kind of takes care of the chicken and egg problem of who made the maker... if there was no maker). Ultimately it is probably an unanswerable question... If it is unanswerable, does that prove anything? No. It is unanswerable who killed JFK. There are a lot of unanswerable questions. To suggest that our not-knowing proves there is a god is to cleave to the idea of a god-of-the-gaps. And, besides, scientifically speaking, a negative cannot prove a positive. (the apparent absence of contradictory evidence does not prove the existence of something)

Why don't you tell me how the world began and tell me what evidence you have of that theory?
philcore (317 D(S))
10 Dec 08 UTC
I didn't have time to respond earlier - but DAMN!!! Wotan, you have done a remarkable job of getting all of the physics-related arguments across that I wanted to.

2nd Law is something that Creationists / IDs always point to as "evidence" for their side. But my big problem is that they want to use the science that they think supports their claim, and dismiss the science that doesn't. It's all physics, done by the same people with the same intentions. My absolute biggest problem with IDers using science in their claims is this:

You outright deny C-14 and Geological radiation dating when it interferes with your beliefs, but you're more than willing to take something like the 2LT out of context because you somehow think it disproves or discredits the big bang. What you don't realize is that scientist have no dog in this race. They are out for the truth and the truth only. If that weren't the case, some upstart little punk would simply disprove their theory and publish it in Nature and be famous. That's how science works - if your shit holds water, you're credible. If not - you're out and the next guy will explain it better. To think that the very same people who formulated the big bang theory are so incredibly stupid as to not understand the 2LT SOOOO much better than a couple guys with Theology degrees, is so completely ridiculous. If you want to deny science - you need to deny it all! Why would you say that the science behind 2LT is anymore credible than the science behind C-14 dating? The only reason is that you think that C-14 is somehow evidence against your beliefs, while 2LT is "proof" that you're right.

It is precisely these types of arguments that were so easy for me to counter during my discussions with my Fundamentalist friend. And definitely NOT the ones that changed my way of thinking.
Dexter.Morgan (135 D)
10 Dec 08 UTC
Wotan <--- what he said
(great post)
philcore (317 D(S))
10 Dec 08 UTC
Dexter - another possibility is that fluctuations can cause a localized decresse in entropy while the system as a whole is increasing. Thats the thing about thermo - you need to isolate the system. If your isolation is the entire freaking universe, then you've got a lot of room for localized irregularities to occur.

and back to jman:
How can Ice even exist where once there was water. Ice is more "ordered" and has less entropy. Surely that violates the 2LT, right? No, because external to the system was some refridgeration mechanism, the operation of which increased the entropy of the entire system - water, colent, energy involved in running the cooling system, etc.

To say that the 2LT prohibits any amount of order out of the initial disorder is to ignore the fact that particles with mass will tend to group together, and when you have an extraordinary amount of things with mass they tend to make things like stars and planets and galaxies. Does that violate 2LT? No! Gravity attracting particles together actually still increases the entropy of the system. Remember that Entropy is not some qualitative Judgement of "order". That's just the way Physicists descibe it to lay people. Entropy is actually a Mathmatical measure whose physical approximate explanation is "disorder"

And again, that's one of the things I don't respect about people who misuse scientific concepts by using their common english translations as though that was their intent. Physics is mathematical, physicists try to explain the math in terms that people can relate to. but Relativity does NOT mean "Everything is relative" and Newtons 3rd law does NOT mean that every thing you do in a social setting will have a consequence.
Dexter.Morgan (135 D)
10 Dec 08 UTC
Some GREAT little instructive videos...
Here is one on why the universe is not young in the biblical sense of a few thousand years... despite attempts to assume that the laws of physics change over time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bRvt0InhYk
(Part 1 in a series... if you like there are 4 other parts - all worth seeing)

And as far as ID vs. Evolution:

"Evolution IS a blind watchmaker"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcAq9bmCeR0

"How Evolution Really Works, Part 1"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeTssvexa9s

"Why Intelligent Design is Wrong, Part 1"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2SVMKZhV2g

"The Origin of Life - Abiogenesis"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6QYDdgP9eg

...etc. I am a big fan of this youtuber's work, as you can see.
http://www.youtube.com/user/cdk007
Dexter.Morgan (135 D)
10 Dec 08 UTC
I forgot to paste in the title of the first video: "Why Young Earth Creationists Must Deny Gravity, Part 1"
spyman (424 D(G))
10 Dec 08 UTC
The Second Law states that, in a closed system without external energy fed in from outside, entropy always increases. What this means, put simply, is that eventually the universe will run out of energy, all the stars will eventually burn out.
Planet Earth however is not a closed system it receives energy from the Sun, thus life can evolve and it is not in violation of the second law of thermodynamics.
spyman (424 D(G))
10 Dec 08 UTC
To be a little more accurate all the energy in the universe will eventually "even itself out with its surroundings" - entrophy.
spyman (424 D(G))
10 Dec 08 UTC
typo - *entropy
mapleleaf (0 DX)
10 Dec 08 UTC
a lobotomy.....
Spyman, I think what you are referring to is the entropy statement of the second law of thermodynamics, which is one of three statements of the second law (the other two being the Clausius and Kelvin-Planck Statements). The entropy statement says that "It is impossible for any system to operate in a way that entropy is destroyed." So in other words, as you pointed out, the net entropy produced by ANY system is either equal to zero or above zero. Simply put into the form of an equation, this statement can be summarized as:

Change in the amount net amount of amount of
of entropy contained entropy transferred entropy
within the system = in across the system + produced within
during some time boundary during the the system
interval time interval during the time
interval.
*oops that equation didn't come out right, it should say:

change in the amount of entropy contained within the system during some time interval
=
net amount of entropy transferred across the system boundary during the time interval
+
amount of entropy produced within the system during the time interval
Forgive me for interjecting, but I am a mechanical engineering student, and I felt the need to be technical.
Also, just to clarify what entropy means, it is basically a measure of how available the energy of a system is to do work, or in other words the randomness of molecules in a system. An increase in entropy denotes a spontaneously occurring process. So to summarize, there is always going to be an increase of disorder in the universe due to the spontaneously occurring processes that take place.

To conceptualize entropy, I'll give you an example my high school chemistry teacher gave me. You can clean your room when it is cluttered or dirty for example, but no matter how many times you clean it or the method in which you try to organize things or put them in order, things will always become unorganized and disorderly due to the everyday things you do in your room, such as change clothing or play games (Diplomacy :)!) or move things around.

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82 replies
superchunk (4890 D)
10 Dec 08 UTC
GREAT New game!!! Need only one more player
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=7281
30pts, ppsc
3 replies
Open
Frisco Play (642 D)
10 Dec 08 UTC
Game 6764 is still paused...
The game was paused due to turkey getting kicked, but now some players will not vote to unpause it. Could an admin please unpause this game?
I suspect the new turkey is a multi-account since the account was formed the day after a new turkey was needed, bought into our game for 2-points as turkey and hasn't joined any other games, nor has been logged on since he joined.
1 reply
Open
xcurlyxfries (0 DX)
09 Dec 08 UTC
Looking For a metagame
Hi, lo

I wanted to play with some buddies but I didn't want to chance it to a public game as thy may not be able to join, Is anyone intrested in a 3v3 game?
8 replies
Open
Werner (877 D)
10 Dec 08 UTC
Can a gamemaster please unpause game 6632?
This game was paused due to the fact that a player was banned for multi-accounting. Someone took over from him since. While everybody has entered the moves, two of the colleagues don seem to be able to unpause even though they entered their moves...
Any chance we can get the game going again?
Thank you!
1 reply
Open
Baquack (347 D)
10 Dec 08 UTC
bouncing and retreats
right i have to ask, if i bounce with someone in a space, but the space they moved from has been taken with a supported attack, is it possible for them to retreat into the space we bounced in on phpdiplomacy?
4 replies
Open
saulberardo (2111 D)
10 Dec 08 UTC
"""""""Back to Life""""""""'
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=7296

(continue in the reply......)
2 replies
Open
max_power (126 D)
10 Dec 08 UTC
NEW GAME - diplomacy-7
100 buy in/24 hr.
2 replies
Open
Canada86 (100 D)
10 Dec 08 UTC
New Game: Empire by Numbers
Nothing special, just want people to join so we can start the game!
0 replies
Open
Noqa (118 D)
10 Dec 08 UTC
New game
http://www.phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=7283
The password is Rothbi.
Everybody are invited, ale Polacy w szczegolnosci ;-)
0 replies
Open
Loller123 (100 D)
10 Dec 08 UTC
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=7303
Beginners game cheap buy in
48 hour phase
0 replies
Open
EdiBirsan (1469 D(B))
09 Dec 08 UTC
Can we stop making new games with less than 7 players?
The game is meant to be played with 7 players. The rulebook version of play without Italy or Italy and Germany has been discredited two generations ago and no one thinks that that is the way to go. Can we just stop the creation of the heresy from the start?
33 replies
Open
Buraeen (211 D)
10 Dec 08 UTC
Builds?
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=7214

In this game it's not allowing me to build anything in Holland. Why?
5 replies
Open
DipperDon (6457 D)
10 Dec 08 UTC
Game: In Soviet Russia Army Builds YOU!!!
Germany moved in S'01 but has now had all units hold for three consecutive seasons. He has not gone into civil disorder, so he must be entering orders to hold. Meanwhile France is picking up the neutral centers Bel/Hol without fighting Germany.

Anyone else think this is more than a little strange?
3 replies
Open
p.Tea (101 D)
08 Dec 08 UTC
Marsilles: mar-SAY, or mar-SIGH
well?
49 replies
Open
LOXC (100 D)
09 Dec 08 UTC
Game for new players
So, we're trying to figure out how the game works, its a really low stakes game, please don't join unless you seriously ARE a noob like us. Kay? thanks :)
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=7268
1 reply
Open
xcurlyxfries (0 DX)
09 Dec 08 UTC
3 games with 300+
http://www.phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=7275
http://www.phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=7276
http://www.phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=7277
24 hour phases except 1 is 30 join join join!!
6 replies
Open
Ichthys (575 D)
09 Dec 08 UTC
New game, 5 to buy in! see below!
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=7278
7 replies
Open
wooooo (926 D)
09 Dec 08 UTC
Join game: Go
need 3 more!
1 reply
Open
diplomat1824 (0 DX)
09 Dec 08 UTC
Etiquette Check
Is it good sportsmanship to finalize your orders as soon as possible or to wait a while, in order to give your fellow players more time to think about their moves?
13 replies
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